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The VERY CIVIL 2016 Presidential Election Discussion

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#21 InProblematique Posted 11 August 2015 - 11:13 AM

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I think we spend too much on the military through engaging without factoring both the direct and indirect economic costs, including the aftermath. The military is a relatively abundant resource for the U.S. so we tend to use it. Essentially, we've spent so much on the hammer that everything starts looking like a nail.

One thing, however, that really pisses me off is how veterans are treated. If our government calculated the true cost - including expedient and appropriate healthcare for vets - maybe politicians would be more prudent about using our military as a political tool. Not to mention more morally defensible.

This is how I'm inclined to think as well. One of the major areas of budget reallocation we need to look at is giving more money to Veterans Affairs. It's embarrassing how much money we spend on war, and how little we spend on those who fight them after they get back.


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#22 Mustachio Posted 11 August 2015 - 02:52 PM

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No serious option supports the Fair Tax so I don't support any of them.  

 

 

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#23 dnbman Posted 11 August 2015 - 09:10 PM

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C.) I really wish we could move off liberal, conservative, Democrat, Republican being pejoratives. Right and Left Wing NUTS are just that and I wish we'd properly deride those that emerge as such from our side of the tent. Being one that roots his beliefs in rule of law, or one that is open to new ideas with regard to the intent of law are not inherently bad. The looney toons on both fringes IMO are what hurts a real dialog and when we let them represent the middle, we deserve what we get.

 

Yes. On a related note, I work with a gentlemen that has (I believe) near opposite political opinions of me. In the abstract, we might say very negative things about each other based on political ideology. Yet, we are nearly eye-to-eye on the overwhelming number of ideas we face at work. 

 

When we go deeper into issues and really pay attention to details and the actual results of how people are affected, I think we'd all be closer to solving problems. But instead, we have this manufactured abstraction of political ideology that is only exacerbated by social media posts, comment sections, and stupid email forwards. 


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#24 spectre Posted 12 August 2015 - 04:12 AM

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They are all crooks.  They will screw anyone for just one more campaign dollar.

 

Democrat vs. Republican?  That's what they want us to believe.  It's really Them vs. Us.

 

They all disgust the living hell out of me.


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#25 Chef Posted 12 August 2015 - 07:38 AM

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They are all crooks.  They will screw anyone for just one more campaign dollar.

 

Democrat vs. Republican?  That's what they want us to believe.  It's really Them vs. Us.

 

They all disgust the living hell out of me.

 

the sooner people believe it is a false choice the better. unfortunately, most people will never see that there is one party.


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#26 InProblematique Posted 12 August 2015 - 08:08 AM

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They are all crooks.  They will screw anyone for just one more campaign dollar.

 

Democrat vs. Republican?  That's what they want us to believe.  It's really Them vs. Us.

 

They all disgust the living hell out of me.

Most years, you're right.

 

Seriously though, Bernie Sanders isn't that kind of politician at all. It's shocking to me that he's getting the popularity he is, given the fact that he has no corporate ties at all. He's been saying the same things, and fighting for the same things since the 60s. All of his money has been from individual donors who are giving him like 20 bucks at a time. It's awesome.


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#27 buckets Posted 12 August 2015 - 10:02 AM

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Most years, you're right.
 
Seriously though, Bernie Sanders isn't that kind of politician at all. It's shocking to me that he's getting the popularity he is, given the fact that he has no corporate ties at all. He's been saying the same things, and fighting for the same things since the 60s. All of his money has been from individual donors who are giving him like 20 bucks at a time. It's awesome.


Remarkable, actually. He has been getting 10k plus supporters at his rallies and no other candidate from either party comes close to getting this kind of consistent turnout. The past week 28k in Portland and 27k in Los Angeles. Other venues have sold out. Today he leads NH polling at 44%.

He recently came to Madison and filled a 10k seat arena on a Wednesday evening even though another major event was happening elsewhere in the city. Contrast that with Scott Walker, who is rarely in the State, cutting services and $250 million from higher education while simultaneously pushing through state funding for a basketball arena. No wonder Bernie's message resonates.
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#28 ziggy Posted 12 August 2015 - 11:22 AM

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They are all crooks. They will screw anyone for just one more campaign dollar.

Democrat vs. Republican? That's what they want us to believe. It's really Them vs. Us.

They all disgust the living hell out of me.


Unfortunately i think that our country will have to suffer through an extended 1930's level depression before the majority of people realize how corrupt our political system has
been for the past several decades
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#29 dnbman Posted 12 August 2015 - 06:32 PM

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They are all crooks.  They will screw anyone for just one more campaign dollar.

 

Democrat vs. Republican?  That's what they want us to believe.  It's really Them vs. Us.

 

They all disgust the living hell out of me.

 

I think the overwhelming majority of people know they're all or mostly crooks. Everybody thinks everybody else just has to realize this truth. 

 

But there are still representatives that vote closer to our interests than others, and until we decide to mass protest, most of us are going to continue to pick the candidate that's the least corrupt and/or representative of our views. 

 

One of Bernie Sanders' main points is desire to reform the campaign process so that big donors and corporations can't buy candidates. If you can't find anyone else to support, vote for him to try and make that happen. Then vote him out next time.


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#30 InProblematique Posted 12 August 2015 - 08:21 PM

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One of Bernie Sanders' main points is desire to reform the campaign process so that big donors and corporations can't buy candidates. If you can't find anyone else to support, vote for him to try and make that happen. Then vote him out next time.

To this end, I also urge anyone (right or left, not just Bernie folks) to check out WolfPAC. It was started by members of The Young Turks (a liberal internet talk show), but has only one goal - getting money out of politics by overturning Citizens United. We all know our politicians are bought, which is a huge part of why Bernie Sanders is so appealing to so many people. He's one of a very select group of politicians who simply don't take money from corporations, and thusly isn't beholden to the interests of a few instead of the many. It's also part of what makes me believe Trump is such a hypocrite for running as a "man of the people." Sure, he might not be in the pocket of guys like the Koch brothers, but he's pals with those billionaires. He might not be bought out (which is a point I honestly find extremely debatable, but whatever), but he's always been the one who's done the buying.

 

Regardless, go here. It's been gaining a lot of traction lately.

 

http://www.wolf-pac.com/

 

It's something we can all get behind. Billionaires should not be able to buy elections, period.


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#31 Chef Posted 13 August 2015 - 04:33 AM

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One of Bernie Sanders' main points is desire to reform the campaign process so that big donors and corporations can't buy candidates. If you can't find anyone else to support, vote for him to try and make that happen. Then vote him out next time.

 

no thanks. the numbers that are in favor of an avowed socialist and/or desire for socialism in this country is absolutely frightening to me.


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#32 ziggy Posted 13 August 2015 - 05:30 AM

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no thanks. the numbers that are in favor of an avowed socialist and/or desire for socialism in this country is absolutely frightening to me.

 

Chef,

 

Not picking a fight. But if the highway system, public libraries, public schools, garbage collection, public parks etc are examples of socialism then why is a bit more socialism a bad thing.

 

If I had my choice of more Socialism or more "Corporatism" then give me the former.

 

What are your thoughts?


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#33 Chef Posted 13 August 2015 - 06:09 AM

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Chef,

 

Not picking a fight. But if the highway system, public libraries, public schools, garbage collection, public parks etc are examples of socialism then why is a bit more socialism a bad thing.

 

If I had my choice of more Socialism or more "Corporatism" then give me the former.

 

What are your thoughts?

 

neither. i want true capitalism. we had it before and it worked great. you have ultimate freedom over your life, but you assume the risk. no bailouts, no welfare, etc. i am not denying a role for government, but i want a very very limited government with the maximum of personal freedom and liberty within that role. just taking your examples in order:

 

highway system: actually a pretty well run system to build the roads and bridges. maintenance is another matter and not for lack of money. for using the money on other things pensions, slush funds etc.

 

public libraries: in my opinion, completely not necessary. 

 

public schools: despite an endless pit of money, they suck. without starting a flaming argument, teachers unions are the major reason. i really don't what the public school system has become. is not about education anymore. it is about making cogs in the system, a siphon for more welfare ie school lunches and cited as the sole reason why we can't own our property but lease it from the state/city via property taxes which i think is unconstitutional. i loathe that folks complain that schools are underfunded when they have multi million dollar athletic budgets, money for band, money for theater and the kids can't read or make change from a $20. this country became great on 1 room school houses with chalk and chalkboards and we can't build a "proper" school with less than $20 million? 

 

garbage collection: i grew up in the country, we did just fine with private garbage collection. however, i do recognize that this is more complicated in a dense urban setting. i think it would function just fine privately, but if you insist on public than fine. but just like with education, i believe there should absolutely be no public sector unions. public sector unions are negotiating with the people they put in office who are in control of an endless amount of money that is not there's to lose. private unions, fine, i don't like them but at least that is a fair negotiation.

 

public parks: same take as libraries. they are nice, but i consider them an unnecessary luxury. if there is left over money, fine. 

 

the root of socialism is that someone else has a right to MY private property, time, money, person. i just will never be able to get behind that as a core philosophy. edit: however, if a local municipality or state wants to go down that route via ballot box, i have less concern because i can always choose to vote with my feet and not participate. (which happens, see california, new york and new jersey) my biggest issue as it relates to the thread topic is the federal government where you can not escape it.


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#34 buckets Posted 13 August 2015 - 12:17 PM

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Ziggy I think you make some key points. The Federal Highway System is socialism and in some ways one of the most inefficient, socialized government programs in the world. It’s largely allocated without local control of choice, while simultaneously creating unintended costs (“free” surface parking lots, household car expenses, additional municipality services, healthcare, free curb parking, reduction in taxable land values, alternative transportation opportunity costs, military protected shipping, etc..). 
 
More than anything it's a proxy for the US political system, which is less about Democrats/Republicans and more about city/rural voters. 

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#35 buckets Posted 13 August 2015 - 12:27 PM

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Government programs that disproportionately benefit a user at no additional cost tend be considered "necessary." Programs that benefit others, even if it's a cheaper alternative, are more likely to be deemed "Socialist." Particularity so if the benefits are reaped in a different city, county, state, etc...

 

A tendency politicians are more than happy to exploit.


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#36 InProblematique Posted 13 August 2015 - 01:50 PM

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the root of socialism is that someone else has a right to MY private property, time, money, person. i just will never be able to get behind that as a core philosophy. edit: however, if a local municipality or state wants to go down that route via ballot box, i have less concern because i can always choose to vote with my feet and not participate. (which happens, see california, new york and new jersey) my biggest issue as it relates to the thread topic is the federal government where you can not escape it.

I think one could argue that the root of capitalism is that someone else has the right to take my private property, time, money, person, just by buying off my local representative.


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#37 Chef Posted 13 August 2015 - 02:23 PM

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I think one could argue that the root of capitalism is that someone else has the right to take my private property, time, money, person, just by buying off my local representative.

 

sorry nope. this is a false argument. what i wrote about socialism is true by definition. what you wrote about capitalism is not capitalism. further, if you want to use historical examples of your argument you get much farther ahead in "socialist" countries ie china, cuba, ussr, venezuela etc than you do in the usa. and if you don't do that you get buried. at least here you can still make it very well without. 

 

either way, i will agree it is a problem here but it is NOT capitalism.


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#38 InProblematique Posted 13 August 2015 - 02:30 PM

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I don't understand why everyone's so eager to point at communist countries as examples of socialism. That's not what I'm talking about here. Of course I don't want to be like China or Cuba, etc. Scandinavian Europe is what I'm talking about. They're democratic socialist countries that top the list in just about everything that you want to be at the top of the list for.

 

Bernie Sanders isn't going to be Fidel Castro. Comparing the two is really quite absurd.


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#39 buckets Posted 13 August 2015 - 02:33 PM

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Pure capitalism doesn't exist, not to mention it's an economic idea not a form of government . Even capitalism requires government regulations to work like patents, a functioning judicial system, taxation decisions (or not), safety standards, and child labor laws to name a few. Without government regulations the idea of capitalism collapses into Oligarchies.

 

My neighbor's freedom to pursue economic gains through a coal plant in his backyard inherently destroys my property value and freedom to breathe clean air. Thus his gains are in part my cost.


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#40 buckets Posted 13 August 2015 - 02:40 PM

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Scandinavian Europe is what I'm talking about. They're democratic socialist countries that top the list in just about everything that you want to be at the top of the list for.

 

 

And more democratic than our system


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