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Your closing arguments...

- - - - - coaching change gm change draft

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#1 Adam42R Posted 11 February 2018 - 05:20 PM

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So there are three arguments I read around the status of the franchise.  A.) Clifford must go, B.) Cho must go, C.) Fire Clifford and Cho.
 
I get the Clifford must go argument, got my membership card this year; only validated it since his return from absence.  But I get that group.  If the team isn't getting him, then he's been disastrous in messaging.  If the team is getting him and executing well, then it shows just how stale his approach is.  I fear however that this is becoming a lack of confidence rolling up.  Lamb today had a TO coming out of a timeout (or very proximate to one) where he laid the ball off for Cody who was a good 3-4' away.  What was surprising was Lamb seemed to direct his strong frustration at the bench, not Cody - from a good 80' away.  That was a rather ominous optic.
 
The Cho must go group is interesting.  The arguments I somewhat get are around salaries given and currently flexibility concerns, then there's drafting but that needs its own chapter.  The arguments I don't get are around how much do any of us know what has been Cho, Michael, or Clifford.  It's so widely stated that MJ meddles and that several of the picks we have made of late are his, not Cho's.  So IF the argument is that folks want someone that will stare down the boss or storm out of the room with their diamond studded moleskin, ok that's fair.  But are there such folks?  Or moreso, is there a history of guys like that we "really" want in control?  I am looking at your Phil Jackson and Larry Brown (who was not president of operations in name but it was widely reported he carried big weight in that dept.).
 
What I am not as clear on is the fire everyone model.  Unless you are lucky enough to find a candidate freshly coming off termination that would potentially have immediate infrastructure to tap into for coaching search and draft scouting, i don't see how this doesn't amount in a dumpster fire.

 

So i put this out there as I am highly interested in hearing opinions that have some basis on history and what we actually know, not mere conjecture.  Also interested in what folks would be looking for in a fantasy world of coach or GM.  


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#2 Hornets686 Posted 11 February 2018 - 05:34 PM

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Just need to retool the roster with more athletic players, and players who can shoot the 3! Exactly what the Cavs just did...


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#3 Buzzau Posted 11 February 2018 - 06:00 PM

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Both gotta go. How many games can a coach go with the same rotation and keep losing. He is too stubborn and won't try anything different even when half the starters are playing like shit.
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#4 BrotherDave Posted 11 February 2018 - 07:44 PM

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A dumpster fire would be an improvement.  We just have a nasty, stinky dumpster that nobody empties.  If it was on fire somebody might actually come and put it out or at least lots of garbage would be burned up. 

 

I don't see how you could look at this situation and not see that Clifford and Cho are both heavily complicit. 


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#5 WIAN Posted 11 February 2018 - 08:43 PM

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Easy answer depending on which way you're going. Complete rebuild, fire both as Cho cannot reign over another rebuild if the first wasn't supremely successful. If you feel like we are a move or two away Cliff goes give Cho a 2 year extension and respond accordingly. My one request in either event can we have a former player in one of the two spots. I have no clue what's going on but I feel like the synergy btwn the FO and the sidelines is off and we have a serious lack of direction.


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#6 pellom Posted 11 February 2018 - 10:19 PM

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My guess is we’ll have a new coach and new GM next year. Keep the roster as is (because we don’t have a choice) and see what happens for the first half of the season. If we suck again, blow it up.
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#7 cltblkhscoach Posted 11 February 2018 - 11:23 PM

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I honestly think Cliff is a great assistant, but as a head guy he needs to re-evaluate his beliefs in todays NBA. I dont think they picked the right guys of course and Cho should go, but they should be better than what they are in spite of that, so Cliff should go also.

Allan Bristow Is The GOAT

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#8 cltblkhscoach Posted 11 February 2018 - 11:25 PM

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Both gotta go. How many games can a coach go with the same rotation and keep losing. He is too stubborn and won't try anything different even when half the starters are playing like shit.


Thats the biggest argument I see on Twitter. Insanity is doing the exact same thing over and over and expecting a different result. The only time it changes is when Cliff has to.

We started freakin PJ Hairston a couple of games ago for several games but Malik is so terrible he cant sniff nothing but garbage time. Yep. Gotcha

Allan Bristow Is The GOAT

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#9 jfoster Posted 12 February 2018 - 02:49 AM

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I feel it has to be both. Clifford mainly because I feel like the coaching has become outdated or the players just don't listen to him anymore. Chi made what looked like good deals in hindsight but because they haven't performed and we STILL haven't hit on a draft pick means he has to go
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#10 TooCool Posted 12 February 2018 - 03:08 AM

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More than anything - I'm more of a B) camp than A) or C).

 

Like many of us have seen; our drafting has been pretty poor for the lack of a better word. Our scouting and draft picks have been mediocre at best.

I'm of the opinion we need to completely overhaul our scouting team; rather than replacing Cho.

 

 

I'm not fussed about us picking Monk/Bacon; I believe Bacon will become a servicable player and Monk will shine in a refined role and he needs another season of development.

 

But picks such as Kaminsky; who came out as a polished player with limited upside are headscratchers to me.

I felt we could of taken a bigger risk and gone Myles Turner; who was more athletic; had just started his development and while there were question marks; could have a far higher ceiling than Kaminsky.

 

Vonleh was another failed pick. Only later Hornets had queries over his BBIQ and his ability to perform; this should of been clearly identified during the scouting phase.


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#11 Vespa luctuosa Posted 12 February 2018 - 07:02 AM

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The Hornets are 23-33 and our first round, lottery pick, is barely getting any run.  Nic Batum is on a max contract and seems to not like playing basketball  How can you not question the Head Coach and GM?  


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#12 Swedd523 Posted 12 February 2018 - 02:00 PM

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I think this season was the culmination of the all-in on this current build.

Its time to completely retool the roster. Cho has had his chance to implement his vision... To very little success. He doesn't deserve to preside over another build. A new GM needs to be brought in.

With that, Clifford was brought in to oversee that vision. There's no denying that on paper this is probably the most talented roster ever fielded by Charlotte. And it's not working. Clifford's scheme and style of play are not working in the modern NBA.

Everyone not named Kemba, Lamb, and Monk need to go. From top to bottom. I'd even consider moving Kemba for the right fee at this point despite him being the absolute most necessary player for the team.

Sad state of affairs in Charlotte right now
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#13 Mustachio Posted 12 February 2018 - 03:16 PM

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I think its a matter of expectations and therefore for me.....    Cho stays.  Clifford goes as soon as possible.  

 

 

You have to go back and see this through the eyes of the 7 win team.   The choice at the time was to continue playing rookies and stock veterans in order to obtain future assets (tanking) or build a team that could compete for playoffs with the understanding that you wouldnt win a championship in the super team era.   

 

 

I think Cho put together a team that should ABSOLUTELY be firmly in the playoffs, while not completely destroying our future (yes next year is strapped, but after that its clear sailing) 

 

I do not think Clifford has put together anything resembling a philosophy, system or style of play in his tenure.  Couple this with a medical need to work less, and I see no reasonable room to improve.

 

Bottom line for me:   If your expectation was that we should be in championship contention right now... Cho should be fired.  That is an unrealistic expectation i believe, and never a consideration of the front office.   However,  If your expectation was that this team should at least compete for the playoffs and be fun to watch and relevant in the NBA.... then it's Clifford that has to go. 

 

 

 

Where do we go from here if I'm in charge?    Clifford is fired today.  Because we are cap strapped for the next season with relatively little hope of changing that, I would give Silas a 1.5 year audition.  

Silas has a track record of developing players, and should be given a shot to develop some sort of system or style that is at the very least fun to watch.  Going into the 2019-2020 we would then have ample evidence of what Silas is capable of, with a salary cap flexibility that would allow us to cater a team to his or a new coaching hires preferences.  


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#14 Adam42R Posted 12 February 2018 - 06:16 PM

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Out of curiosity for those wanting a full house cleanse, how many of those have worked?  The last I can recall is the Nyets and I don't think that has proven to be any stroke of genius.  Kenny Atkinson has the EXACT winning percentage as interim HC Tony Brown (found that kind of funny), does that point to a GM problem or a Coaching problem?  Too bad there's no anchor point to have an idea.  And we have an even bigger problem.  We have had the (reported) yes-men running basketball operations in the past, that didn't work.  We don't want someone with an ego so large that they won't work with ownership (like Phil Jackson in NY).  So we have a guy that (reportedly) isn't in MJ's inner yes-man circle but also has his own say to some degree, the amount of which is not known. We at least need someone like Cho if not Cho, which makes this a bit harder to think it's a scenario that anyone is better than what we have.  I submit it's not. 
 
And as no one has responded on the Chofford / Chorjan complications, how comfortable are you that you know who's setting the direction and pulling the ultimate levers?

Here comes McRoberts, the throw to Walker, it's in the aaaaaiiiiirrrr, YESSSSS! Bobcats win it! My my my, Kemba Walker. Steve Martin - Toronto 12/18/2013
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#15 spaceshoes Posted 12 February 2018 - 06:39 PM

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I agree with the statement that someone said earlier, Cho has put pieces in place to be successful. I think the problem lies with coaching. I would love to see this team with a better coaching philosophy in place. Sure we had different personnel two seasons ago, but our style of play was different. Why did we get away from that? The quicker style of play? Shooting the 3? I want to see them play next year with Monk having an offseason to prepare and a different coach.
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#16 iowabobcat Posted 12 February 2018 - 07:28 PM

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I think Cho should go and MJ should leave it up to the new GM to decide if Cliff stays or goes. 

 

Cho has had his chance to build a successful NBA roster and he has failed. Depending on where we end up picking in draft, I don't think it would be a bad idea to shop our 1st rounder if a team is willing to take on a contract like MKG to clear up some cap space. Looking at all of the contracts we have on the books for next season unless we draft a PG, I don't see a rookie getting much of any playing time. I would also approach Dwight about a contract buyout and it would be pretty tempting if he were willing to give up at least $6 mil on his contract to become a FA. Under no circumstances would I move Dwight if it means we take on any crappy contact beyond next season. 


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#17 dnbman Posted 12 February 2018 - 07:31 PM

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I think its a matter of expectations and therefore for me.....    Cho stays.  Clifford goes as soon as possible.  

 

 

You have to go back and see this through the eyes of the 7 win team.   The choice at the time was to continue playing rookies and stock veterans in order to obtain future assets (tanking) or build a team that could compete for playoffs with the understanding that you wouldnt win a championship in the super team era.   

 

 

I think Cho put together a team that should ABSOLUTELY be firmly in the playoffs, while not completely destroying our future (yes next year is strapped, but after that its clear sailing) 

 

...

 

Bottom line for me:   If your expectation was that we should be in championship contention right now... Cho should be fired.  That is an unrealistic expectation i believe, and never a consideration of the front office.   However,  If your expectation was that this team should at least compete for the playoffs and be fun to watch and relevant in the NBA.... then it's Clifford that has to go. 

 

Agree with most of this.

 

 

 

I do not think Clifford has put together anything resembling a philosophy, system or style of play in his tenure.  Couple this with a medical need to work less, and I see no reasonable room to improve.

 

I disagree there. I think his philosophy is pretty clear, if too simple for the modern NBA: play defense, secure the ball, pick & roll, four out. Always outwork your opponent. This has typically been how we play, for better or worse, sense he's been here. We've always played through injuries, which has been a constant issue in building on momentum. We clearly are not playing to that philosophy now, for a variety of reasons. 

 

I don't think they fire Clifford now, because there is no alternative, and he's well regarded. I could see it at the end of the season though. 


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#18 spaceshoes Posted 12 February 2018 - 07:40 PM

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You say part of his philosophy is 4 out. However, he had the opportunity to play that way this season but he didn't. He starts MKG and Dwight. No way you can play 4 out with that. The second unit now can't play 4 out either. When Zeller was injured he could have played 4 out with his starting unit had he moved either Dwight or MKG to reserve role. Again, I would love to see how good this team could be if we tried something different.
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#19 dnbman Posted 12 February 2018 - 07:50 PM

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You say part of his philosophy is 4 out. However, he had the opportunity to play that way this season but he didn't. He starts MKG and Dwight. No way you can play 4 out with that. The second unit now can't play 4 out either. When Zeller was injured he could have played 4 out with his starting unit had he moved either Dwight or MKG to reserve role. Again, I would love to see how good this team could be if we tried something different.

 

Yeah, I think MKG is a problem for that idea, but MKG has been pretty good mid range this year. I think he's fine with MKG in because of his defense. When MKG isn't in, he tends to for Frank, Lamb, Graham, and MCW playing outside. I think his philosophy is spread shooters around if even if it isn't in execution with MKG on the court.


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#20 WIAN Posted 12 February 2018 - 08:03 PM

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This will sound very simplistic but whoever made the push/suggestion for Plumlee should go. If MJ was involved he should no longer be brought in on bball decisions. For all that want Dwight bought out in the retooling of the Hornets, he would not be here if not for Mr Plumlee.

I have not heard a reasonable explanation as to why that trade was made and if Cho and Cliff were brainstorming and it resulted in that trade both need to go. I know this sounds like a very narrow minded POV but I feel really strong about that transaction and how it relates to our current state of affairs.
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