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- - - - - coaching change gm change draft

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#21 Adam42R Posted 12 February 2018 - 08:06 PM

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WIAN, you touch on the biggest overarching issue for me, I don't buy that anyone laying blame squarely in Cho can prove where the fault actually lies.
Here comes McRoberts, the throw to Walker, it's in the aaaaaiiiiirrrr, YESSSSS! Bobcats win it! My my my, Kemba Walker. Steve Martin - Toronto 12/18/2013
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#22 Swedd523 Posted 12 February 2018 - 09:26 PM

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I think it’s less that Cho is at fault and more that if we’re going to rebuild again, Cho hasn’t earned the right to reign over another iteration. Is it more of a coaching issue? Maybe. But who hired Cliff and hasn’t moved on from him once realizing is issue? Cho.

New rebuild has to mean a new GM
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#23 Mich_Mercer Posted 12 February 2018 - 09:37 PM

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To early to clean house. We have to see how we do with a new coach first. Then, if it still doesn't work... make big moves. Even if we clean house and keep Clifford, I believe we are looking at the same thing... no matter who we have on the team.
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#24 Adam42R Posted 12 February 2018 - 09:41 PM

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Curious Swedd, is there any example (simultaneously firing both) in modern history where that's actually led to any form of immediate or intermediate success? That Nets example looms large in my mind. Think it's more of a desperate move than a deliberate one. Hard to get good candidate when desperate.

Was Atlanta's hire of Bud before they let Ferry go? Thought he played both roles initially.
Here comes McRoberts, the throw to Walker, it's in the aaaaaiiiiirrrr, YESSSSS! Bobcats win it! My my my, Kemba Walker. Steve Martin - Toronto 12/18/2013
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#25 dnbman Posted 12 February 2018 - 09:53 PM

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I think it’s less that Cho is at fault and more that if we’re going to rebuild again, Cho hasn’t earned the right to reign over another iteration. Is it more of a coaching issue? Maybe. But who hired Cliff and hasn’t moved on from him once realizing is issue? Cho.

New rebuild has to mean a new GM

 

That's fair enough.


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#26 Swedd523 Posted 12 February 2018 - 10:12 PM

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Curious Swedd, is there any example (simultaneously firing both) in modern history where that's actually led to any form of immediate or intermediate success? That Nets example looms large in my mind. Think it's more of a desperate move than a deliberate one. Hard to get good candidate when desperate.


I mean, I don't really care or see how that has any bearing on this situation whatsoever.
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#27 dav7z Posted 12 February 2018 - 10:14 PM

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Cho and some new faces in the scouting department.  Hire the best GM on the market during the all star break. To give them time to learn out talent. And players to draft . So he don't have to go by what he has heard. . Clifford to be let go at the break all so . Give Silas the chance to show what he can do the rest of this season. If MJ isn't satisfied then go out and hire the smartest young up and coming coach out their.  This roster should have made the playoffs . Losing at least 14 games by 5 points or less. If we would have won just half of those games . We would have 30 wins , 23 loses  . Enough to be in the playoffs,  We had enough talent.


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#28 Icky Thump Posted 12 February 2018 - 11:20 PM

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I think Cho should go and MJ should leave it up to the new GM to decide if Cliff stays or goes. 

 

Cho has had his chance to build a successful NBA roster and he has failed. Depending on where we end up picking in draft, I don't think it would be a bad idea to shop our 1st rounder if a team is willing to take on a contract like MKG to clear up some cap space. Looking at all of the contracts we have on the books for next season unless we draft a PG, I don't see a rookie getting much of any playing time. I would also approach Dwight about a contract buyout and it would be pretty tempting if he were willing to give up at least $6 mil on his contract to become a FA. Under no circumstances would I move Dwight if it means we take on any crappy contact beyond next season. 

 

If we're attaching a first round pick to get rid of a contract it better be Nic Batum and even then I don't think thats something we should do.


T73It2l.gifTime to nut up or shut up!

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#29 BrotherDave Posted 12 February 2018 - 11:26 PM

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I very much disagree with the argument that Cho has assembled players capable of sustainable playoff success.  The talent on this team is overrated.  Look at our backup PG.  Cho went out and got a bum with bad knees to back up Kemba and play alongside him for defensive purposes.  Cho is basically just throwing crap at the wall and hoping something sticks.  And even the good players Cho does acquire, especially by draft, there's little hope of them doing well b/c of bad coaches.  

 

Cho brings in questionable players, Clifford makes them unquestionably bad.  Thus, your Charlotte Hornets in a nut shell.


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#30 nowhere fast Posted 13 February 2018 - 01:30 AM

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Cho's option runs out at the end of the season.  So how do they sell re-signing him after they fire Steve?


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#31 Airtank Posted 13 February 2018 - 05:14 AM

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Remember what the first prerogative was after the 2011/12 reset: building a positive culture.
After multiple coaching changes after the Larry Brown era, Clifford resembles stability. Just that the stability morphed into mediocrity.
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#32 cltblkhscoach Posted 13 February 2018 - 08:42 AM

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Steve Clifford = Mike Fratello to me for you old school guys. Respected, decent coach that gets you to that point but then was behind the times and got left behind because of it.

Allan Bristow Is The GOAT

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#33 pellom Posted 13 February 2018 - 10:45 AM

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To early to clean house. We have to see how we do with a new coach first. Then, if it still doesn't work... make big moves. Even if we clean house and keep Clifford, I believe we are looking at the same thing... no matter who we have on the team.


Too early?? Hell, we’re two years too late. We should’ve followed Atlanta’s path. And it was tougher for them because they had a higher peak.
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#34 Mustachio Posted 13 February 2018 - 11:36 AM

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I think it’s less that Cho is at fault and more that if we’re going to rebuild again, Cho hasn’t earned the right to reign over another iteration. Is it more of a coaching issue? Maybe. But who hired Cliff and hasn’t moved on from him once realizing is issue? Cho.

New rebuild has to mean a new GM

 

 

This makes logical sense.  But I'm of the opinion that the rebuild never really ended, it only took a break to make sure fan interest didn't dip into apocalyptic numbers.  So yeah Cho maybe throwing crap against the wall right now, but it's because a championship is unattainable and an outright tank is undoable.  He's being forced by market, or by Jordan to play the middle line here.    

 

I think we've kept our picks, and generally our LONG term cap stability is in tact.   I think this roster was built to be competitive while maintaining future assets and flexibilty and it's not competitive at all.   That's on the coach.  


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#35 pellom Posted 13 February 2018 - 12:34 PM

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This makes logical sense. But I'm of the opinion that the rebuild never really ended, it only took a break to make sure fan interest didn't dip into apocalyptic numbers. So yeah Cho maybe throwing crap against the wall right now, but it's because a championship is unattainable and an outright tank is undoable. He's being forced by market, or by Jordan to play the middle line here.

I think we've kept our picks, and generally our LONG term cap stability is in tact. I think this roster was built to be competitive while maintaining future assets and flexibilty and it's not competitive at all. That's on the coach.


But we’re not even at the middle line you describe. We’re not making the playoffs consistently. Nevermind competing for championships - which I don’t think anyone is expecting.
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#36 GeraldWallaceMVP Posted 13 February 2018 - 01:25 PM

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Saw on twitter that one of the Raptors personel said to one of fans that “Y’all don’t Have no system”
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#37 Adam42R Posted 13 February 2018 - 01:57 PM

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Saw on twitter that one of the Raptors personel said to one of fans that “Y’all don’t Have no system”

 

If you ask J Lamb, based on that visual exchange with the bench, I don't think that's an isolated opinion.


Here comes McRoberts, the throw to Walker, it's in the aaaaaiiiiirrrr, YESSSSS! Bobcats win it! My my my, Kemba Walker. Steve Martin - Toronto 12/18/2013
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#38 kiery101 Posted 13 February 2018 - 02:49 PM

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I tend to agree.

We were a defense first team when we made the playoffs but nowadays opponents light us up from all over the court. 

We somehow need to find a better balance between helping in the paint and defending the three point shot. 

 

We're also lacking an offensive coordinator. There are too many possessions where we rely on Iso plays instead of ball

and man movement. That might work out with Kemba or Lamb and to a degree with Dwight but more or less every other player 

needs someone facilitating for him. 

Nic Batum stands out at this too. He's rarely shooting of a screen or spots up like he used to do in his first two years.

He's mostly taking his turn-around fade way jump shot... a horribly difficult shot to take. There are not many Players through

the History of the NBA that made this shot on an efficient basis and I think we can agree he's not one of them.


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#39 cltblkhscoach Posted 13 February 2018 - 04:31 PM

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Cliff always says the things he stands by is that we are hard to play against and we give great effort. I think the effort is there most nights, but we certainly arent hard to play against.

Offensively, I couldnt tell you our offense outside of 10000 pick and roll scenarios. Every now and then we run some NBA offense, but most great teams have systems. Houston, Golden State, San Antonio, you know what their identities are. I think we try to play a hybrid of a lot of different things and its a conjointed mess when Kemba isnt going for 30.

Defense, yeah defend the paint and all that, but on ball defense is just bad so that philosophy needs to be adjusted with varying coverages thrown in to give an opponent more to think about - like when teams start trapping Kemba on pick and roll for example.

Creativity and innovation within our schemes just doesnt happen often enough. And maybe they are limited due to personnel, but something has to give.

Allan Bristow Is The GOAT

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#40 iowabobcat Posted 13 February 2018 - 07:08 PM

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If we're attaching a first round pick to get rid of a contract it better be Nic Batum and even then I don't think thats something we should do.

 

We would have to give up more than that for a team to take on Batum's contract. Is attaching our 1st with a bad contract to clear space the best option? I don't know. But we've got to do something to clear cap space to improve this team. IMO, the roster we have right now is not capable of making the playoffs and we've got a lot of big contracts on the books for multiple seasons. If we are able to lock up Kemba long term, unless we can move a big contract we aren't going to have cap space to get pieces around him until another year later when Marvin and MKG's contract comes off the books. 


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