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I've never been this pissed at the Hornets & Michael Jordan

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#1 JGib23 Posted 21 June 2018 - 02:24 PM

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I was going to post this in the Mozgov trade but, I'm so pissed that I started a new thread....

 

 

I guess I was naive. I thought that we didn't offer D12 a buyout because he wouldn't accept it... Now, Real GM is reporting that Dwight will accept a buyout from the Nets and become a free agent...

 

This is unacceptable management.

 

We completely fucked our cap up for next year all to save Michael $ from Luxury Tax.

 

This move was not made for Basketball reasons and definitely does not make us better on the court.

 

I agreed that D12 needed to go but, to make this trade and not buy him out is infuriating.


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#2 Mustachio Posted 21 June 2018 - 02:33 PM

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1.  We don't know if we offered a buyout.  Or if he would have accepted it before being traded to the Nets. 

 

2.  completely fucked up our cap next year?   We have around 16 million less to work with than we would have.  Was that 16 million really the difference in an NBA ring?  or was that 16 million really just the difference in about 10 wins?    and next years cap only matters if you were willing to spend 30 million + on Kemba for 5 years AND if we trade Kemba its completely moot.   It's a rebuild at that point.  

 

3.  This move was made entirely for basketball reasons.   locker room chemistry is a pretty big basketball reason. 

 

 

4.   I still love the idea that a guy who owns a 800 million dollar basketball team is cheap.


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#3 JGib23 Posted 21 June 2018 - 02:43 PM

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1. I find it unbelievable that D12 would accept a buyout from one team but not another...   I firmly believe we did not offer a buyout.

 

2. Resigning Kemba @30M will push us into near Luxury Tax territory next season with an incomplete roster. So yes, this fucks our cap up for next year or forces us to Trade Kemba... Cant have good cap position and Kemba now.

 

3. The move would have been to buy him out or waive him if locker room or chemistry was the motivation.... This was a Luxury Tax decision not a basketball decision.

 

4. Didn't say he was cheap... My feeling is he values profit over winning... I never believed that before today.


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#4 pellom Posted 21 June 2018 - 02:49 PM

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Kemba Walker is not getting $30M lol
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#5 Adam42R Posted 21 June 2018 - 02:49 PM

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Yours was my first thought initially but as I said in the the 2018 Draft Thread after thinking about it a bit, unless Dwight was going to take a deep cut in the buy out (seems unlikely) then we'd be over the tax line, unable to use any exception but vet mins and likely have holes.  If Kemba retention is key, and we'll see some time tonight if he's not moved if that's the case, then my bet is we played the only hand we had.  But it's some baaaaad optics, that's no doubt.

 

And it's my belief that we aren't trying to avoid the tax (name your year) but we are trying to avoid the repeater tax which is a much nastier dance partner.  Ergo, I think we plan to cross the tax line to resign Kemba if necessary and this move does make that more palatable.  


Here comes McRoberts, the throw to Walker, it's in the aaaaaiiiiirrrr, YESSSSS! Bobcats win it! My my my, Kemba Walker. Steve Martin - Toronto 12/18/2013
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#6 Mustachio Posted 21 June 2018 - 02:54 PM

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1. I find it unbelievable that D12 would accept a buyout from one team but not another...   I firmly believe we did not offer a buyout.

 

2. Resigning Kemba @30M will push us into near Luxury Tax territory next season with an incomplete roster. So yes, this fucks our cap up for next year or forces us to Trade Kemba... Cant have good cap position and Kemba now.

 

3. The move would have been to buy him out or waive him if locker room or chemistry was the motivation.... This was a Luxury Tax decision not a basketball decision.

 

4. Didn't say he was cheap... My feeling is he values profit over winning... I never believed that before today.

 

 

1.  He was a starter in Charlotte.  He was coming off the bench in NJ.   Belief is irrelevant. 

 

2.  Resigning Kemba @30 pushes 15 mil short of Luxury tax.  So without Mozgov contract we would have had 30 million to work with.   Please go ahead and list out the free agents we were gonna get with that extra 15 million that were gonna make us contenders.   It's just not that big of a deal.  And we aren't dead in the water by any means.     

 

3.  Why is paying someone to not play while receiving nothing in return (not even cap space) the only acceptable basketball move?   We traded away the cancer and got back picks and cap relief.  Our locker room is healthier for it.  Thats a great basketball reason period. 

 

4.  You say profit over winning.   where exactly is the winning gonna come from?   We won 36 games back to back.   Why pay the luxury tax for shit results?   And what about the repeating tax?  What if we need to go over next season?   Jordan is a billionaire, you really think he was sitting in the board room going... " man I don't know if imma make rent next week if i have to pay luxury tax" ?     


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#7 JGib23 Posted 21 June 2018 - 03:44 PM

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1. he started last year.. So, your belief is that no one in the org had the courage to tell him that he was no longer going to be the starter and that maybe he should consider a buyout?

 

2. The Projected Cap for 19-20 is $108M. With our current players + Mozgov +$30M Kemba we are ~126M for 10 players.... So the non buyout ensure us that we are getting Kemba at a significant discount and still being up against the cap or we are trading Kemba/letting him walk

 

3. Its' not great because it could have been done easier with a buyout or waiving him... Which keeps $16M off next seasons books... Even if you don't think we could attract someone with $16m in free agency, $16m in space would allow us to take a bad contract for something more than 2 2nd round picks.(or so you would hope)

 

4.of course not, MJ's not worried about paying his bills.... he's worried about stacking his bills... riddle me this, Who made the better basketball move? Us or the Nets? Clearly the NETS... Their owner wrote a check and gave themselves tons of opportunity for next offseason, our owner decided it was better to not write a check to improve our position going into next offseason- it's as cut and dry as that. 1 owner wrote a check and gave his team a better future and another owner accepted a check that limits his teams ability to improve next offseason.


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#8 JGib23 Posted 21 June 2018 - 03:47 PM

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All that said.... If Mitch strikes Gold with #45 tonight, then I'll admit my mistake.


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#9 buckets Posted 21 June 2018 - 03:51 PM

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1. he started last year.. So, your belief is that no one in the org had the courage to tell him that he was no longer going to be the starter and that maybe he should consider a buyout?

 

2. The Projected Cap for 19-20 is $108M. With our current players + Mozgov +$30M Kemba we are ~126M for 10 players.... So the non buyout ensure us that we are getting Kemba at a significant discount and still being up against the cap or we are trading Kemba/letting him walk

 

3. Its' not great because it could have been done easier with a buyout or waiving him... Which keeps $16M off next seasons books... Even if you don't think we could attract someone with $16m in free agency, $16m in space would allow us to take a bad contract for something more than 2 2nd round picks.(or so you would hope)

 

4.of course not, MJ's not worried about paying his bills.... he's worried about stacking his bills... riddle me this, Who made the better basketball move? Us or the Nets? Clearly the NETS... Their owner wrote a check and gave themselves tons of opportunity for next offseason, our owner decided it was better to not write a check to improve our position going into next offseason- it's as cut and dry as that. 1 owner wrote a check and gave his team a better future and another owner accepted a check that limits his teams ability to improve next offseason.

 

 

Well said. 


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#10 dnbman Posted 21 June 2018 - 03:51 PM

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All that said.... If Mitch strikes Gold with #45 tonight, then I'll admit my mistake.

 

Billy D's got your back: 

billy-dee-williams_t580.jpg?8f1b58749167


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#11 eshelmon Posted 21 June 2018 - 03:54 PM

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I was going to post this in the Mozgov trade but, I'm so pissed that I started a new thread....
 
 
I guess I was naive. I thought that we didn't offer D12 a buyout because he wouldn't accept it... Now, Real GM is reporting that Dwight will accept a buyout from the Nets and become a free agent...
 
This is unacceptable management.
 
We completely fucked our cap up for next year all to save Michael $ from Luxury Tax.
 
This move was not made for Basketball reasons and definitely does not make us better on the court.
 
I agreed that D12 needed to go but, to make this trade and not buy him out is infuriating.


Yes agree a especially huge wtf if he is bought out close to the 16 million we paying mozgov this year, who we have to now pay him 16 next year too...only possible saving grace is Howard was not going to make any deal with kupchak
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#12 HokieHornet Posted 21 June 2018 - 04:18 PM

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Agree it may be a worse look than it is in reality. I may not fully understand the details (i.e. I'm a naive idiot) but wouldn't it also be a bad look, and actual bad business, to incur the cost of that prospective buyout plus the tax payment plus the cost of the incoming tax payment you're now missing out on all in the name of dumping a bad apple? Because if that's the case, yeah they added to next year's cap, but they also saved money, freed up cap space this year to work on this year's roster, and collected assets that could be used to help work on next year's cap, not to mention the exorcising of the locker room.

Just seems like there were multiple options to solve this problem and none of them were good. And in this scenario, yeah they save some money and that money can be saved for paying the tax in a year that matters. If Brooklyn wants to pay that money now good for them. Looks like they're still under the cap.

Also agree let's all just get along now so that if the draft goes poorly we have some remorse left later.
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#13 QC Thundercats Posted 21 June 2018 - 04:40 PM

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Hasn't everyone become numb to Hornet's headlines in the news by now?  Its always irrelevant anyway, nothing ever changes.  Hot takes of MJ (and Cam Newton) are awesome to get clicks.  Yay us.

 

We got good headlines when we signed Dwight, when we signed Lance - those were pretty terrible years in retrospect.  But when we got good headlines like...umm...well, when... ok, actually we never get good headlines.  Blah blah, who cares.  We're basically the Sacramento Kings of the East at this point, nobody likes any move we make anyway.  Even when they thought Monk was a steal, Bobcats gonna Bobcat Hornets gonna Hornet.

 

Bold move to get Dwight, bold move to get rid of Dwight, "MJ Still Worst GMz in the League".  While MJ is a businessman, I'm pretty sure he hired Mitch to handle the tediousness of being the capologist, to figure out long term money, and probably had Polk review it first before allowing it to move forward.  Sure he greenlit it, but its pretty much a Mitch move right now.  But who's gonna click on a story about Mitch.

 

Anyway, I'm still hoping we pick Terrance Williams over Gerald Henderson tonight.  He's strong, athletic, got handles and can pass.  Our annual 11th pick always is the most exciting part of the year.


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#14 JGib23 Posted 21 June 2018 - 11:27 PM

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All that said.... If Mitch strikes Gold with #45 tonight, then I'll admit my mistake.


No crow for me to eat.. we just sold the #45 pick.

‍♂
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#15 Adam42R Posted 21 June 2018 - 11:29 PM

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They might have stuck silver at 34.
Here comes McRoberts, the throw to Walker, it's in the aaaaaiiiiirrrr, YESSSSS! Bobcats win it! My my my, Kemba Walker. Steve Martin - Toronto 12/18/2013
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#16 buckets Posted 21 June 2018 - 11:31 PM

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Yeah what's the precedent for trading down in the lottery for 2nd's?


#Chodidthemath
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#17 Adam42R Posted 22 June 2018 - 09:33 PM

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Back to that worse look, and a lot of what's transpired over that last week seems far less unlikable than it did in real time. In fact all of it I'd categorize as such. But this thread, inspired by the buy out of Dwight, came into focus tonight. In the current scenario, the only truly dead money it's the 16.7m this year for Moz. We certainly learned in the past there are no untradeable contracts so that 16.7 next year is not guaranteed to be on our plate. The second round picks we have remaining could help ensure that, especially if we could replace the lack of a future seconds with our stashed draft. But had we negotiated and failed with Dwight to get to a similar number, a publicly disgruntled Dwight might have had us owing the pick, not getting one in return. That might have been a risk without an offsetting reward.

That ability to always trade a contract, even if it's a lighter at a matchstick factory, had to weigh in on the consideration of a waive and stretch. If we had stretched him, assuming there are no unobvious outs with that, we are stuck with that 7.8m per year for three years with no ability to trade that away out of critical pay anything need. That might be the greater risk of the options we had on the table.

The Shai/Miles pick and swap was pretty ballsy the more I think on it too. We had to have some dammed good info that LAC wanted Shai enough to give some assets for him and some other good enough feels that we were ok if nothing did transpire. I can't really imagine making a pick and then waiting for the call to come in to buy it off you. Considering any pretext to doing that with the Clippers couldn't have yielded a "yeah, if you pick him well offer you something to take him if you." So dann, that was gutsy. Glad it worked out, liked the risk v reward profile of it even had it failed.

Bottom line, when I look at the whole, I think Mitch did very well through this. And that kinda shocks me to see me type that. Looking forward to seeing how long I can remain in that state of mind.
Here comes McRoberts, the throw to Walker, it's in the aaaaaiiiiirrrr, YESSSSS! Bobcats win it! My my my, Kemba Walker. Steve Martin - Toronto 12/18/2013
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#18 GeraldWallaceMVP Posted 23 June 2018 - 10:08 AM

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-Fired Cliff

-Hired coach who is passionate about developing our young players

-Traded Dwight

-Actually used 2nd round picks

 

I actually am stoked about Bridges. I will say that like him or not, Mitch actually stuck to his board. After years of seemingly having no strategy this is refreshing. Dude at least seems more competent and confident than Cho did at times.

 


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#19 Vanderbilt_Grad Posted 23 June 2018 - 10:36 PM

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I was going to post this in the Mozgov trade but, I'm so pissed that I started a new thread....

 

 

I guess I was naive. I thought that we didn't offer D12 a buyout because he wouldn't accept it... Now, Real GM is reporting that Dwight will accept a buyout from the Nets and become a free agent...

 

This is unacceptable management.

 

We completely fucked our cap up for next year all to save Michael $ from Luxury Tax.

 

This move was not made for Basketball reasons and definitely does not make us better on the court.

 

I agreed that D12 needed to go but, to make this trade and not buy him out is infuriating.

 

This was a situation that was more complex than it might appear at first glance and was impacted by 3 things in the CBA - buyout rules, taxpayer penalties to the MLE, and the repeater tax.

 

For arcane reasons I don't really understand the money saved in a buyout isn't taken off the teams cap accounting wise until the *end* of a season.  Since Dwight has already been paid for 2017-18 this means that if he had been bought out that the team might have avoided the tax at year end of 2018-19 - ***if he cooperated by voluntarily reducing the amount owed enough*** - but that for the entire year up to that point they would have had to act like a tax paying team counting Dwight's full salary.  That would mean only getting the Tax-payers MLE, not the full MLE for example - which in turn would limit them in who they could sign as free agents this summer.  Trading for Mozgov avoided all that.  The team is clearly under the cap CBA wise and can use the full MLE.

 

On top of that Dwight would have had to take a pretty big hit for the Hornets to have avoided the tax this season.  Yeah, it's only Jordan's $$$, but it would have had an even bigger impact in 2019-20 if they were a tax team in this coming season.  Even if the team had kept Dwight and let his salary come off the books there is a good chance that the team was going to hit the tax in 2019-20 after resigning Kemba.  Taking a one year tax hit hurts but isn't nearly as bad as what happens if it's the 2nd year a team is paying the tax.  The repeater tax is crazy harsh. 

 

If the team had Kept Dwight there would have been an acrimonious negotiation as the Hornets tried to avoid the tax by getting Dwight to void as much guaranteed salary as possible.  If they were not able to do that, then they probably would have had to trade someone else like Lamb for nothing just to avoid the repeater tax or getting stuck in a situation where they only had the taxpayer MLE as described above.

 

With the Moz trade it's pretty likely that the team will pay the tax in the season after this upcoming one if they resign Kemba - but after that tons of salary comes off the books and the tax is only a one year blip.  Provided MJ is willing to pay the tax and the team takes smart advantage of the MLE this year, then the Moz trade is probably not so bad.  Plus it's always possible that Moz gets stretched or another trade happens to make the books work.

 

And speaking of stretching here are the numbers

* Stretching Dwight this summer - 3 year hit of 7.83 mil per year

* Stretching Moz this summer - 5 year hit of 7.4 mil per year

* Stretching Moz next summer as Kemba becomes a free agent - 3 year hit of 6.17 mil per year

 

So stretching Moz next summer would result in the least amount of dead money overall.

 

Finally Moz's option next summer is a player option - so it's vaguely possible that he could decline it as well, saving the Hornets lots of trouble.  I think that's *SUPER* unlikely but stranger things have happened.  The longshot gamble might have been a factor in the trade as well, but IDK.


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#20 Adam42R Posted 26 June 2018 - 11:20 PM

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The Shai/Miles pick and swap was pretty ballsy the more I think on it too. We had to have some dammed good info that LAC wanted Shai enough to give some assets for him and some other good enough feels that we were ok if nothing did transpire. I can't really imagine making a pick and then waiting for the call to come in to buy it off you. Considering any pretext to doing that with the Clippers couldn't have yielded a "yeah, if you pick him well offer you something to take him if you." So dann, that was gutsy. Glad it worked out, liked the risk v reward profile of it even had it failed.


Listening to the Courtside Seats ep. 2, Mitch says that we initiated contact. So I am assuming we reach out, say hey, you busy for the next ten minutes Jerry, here's what we're going to do, you want him? Really got to have the right info to make that stab. We pick not their guy and damn, that's a bad great grade :)
Here comes McRoberts, the throw to Walker, it's in the aaaaaiiiiirrrr, YESSSSS! Bobcats win it! My my my, Kemba Walker. Steve Martin - Toronto 12/18/2013
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