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#21 Adam42R Posted 11 February 2019 - 10:27 AM

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Ridiculous argument.

Sign Kemba.
Sign Lamb.


I don't get arguments to the contrary at this point. To me, it's not so much an argument that Jeremy is the best starting SG, he's likely in the last third in that category. That's not scientific, just a dart at the board but it doesn't change the point, only enhances it if I am undervaluing him. We cannot trade him for a like-for-like player so there's no substantiative improvement via FA walking through that door this year or next. We can exceed the cap to sign both he and Kemba to the 40-45mpy it will take to do so and come out far ahead talent-wise over anything else we can net with Kemba + a vet minimum contract spot. I was all for treating Lamb as an expiring contract when there was potential to add a bona fide scorer via trades but not having done that, to not retain him would be really short sighted IMO.
Here comes McRoberts, the throw to Walker, it's in the aaaaaiiiiirrrr, YESSSSS! Bobcats win it! My my my, Kemba Walker. Steve Martin - Toronto 12/18/2013
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#22 powellrmp Posted 11 February 2019 - 11:02 AM

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How much do people think Lamb will sign for? And is kemba really going to take less so that the team can re sign lamb? Really?
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#23 Mustachio Posted 11 February 2019 - 11:27 AM

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How much do people think Lamb will sign for? And is kemba really going to take less so that the team can re sign lamb? Really?

 

Who cares how much he signs for specifically.    We have bird rights on Lamb and Kemba.   As long as we can legally and without penalty sign both Kemba and Lamb.  Give them whatever it takes.  

 

 

The question is how much do you believe in Monk.   I believe in him a lot.   So I think you sign Lamb as your vet SG who will be 29 when a 3 year deal is up.    

 

Lamb - 3 year contract 15 per.  

Monk - 3 year contract making 4 5 and then 7 million. 

 

That is 19 Million, 20 Million and 22 million for our SG rotation and it's just about as good as any SG combo in the league for the money/age/risk/reward.  

 

 

That locks in our SG position for the next 3 years with a solid veteran in Lamb, and Monk eventually taking over the majority of the minutes by the end of year 2ish .   No matter your distaste for the current trade deadline and win/loss record, Lamb is a solid producing SG for his minutes and contract.  and he's a great chemistry guy.

 

We are cap strapped next year and will not be able to afford any free agent SG to replace Lamb's contributions and minutes.   We aren't gonna tank in a cap strapped year.  or any year with this regime.   

 

in the second and third year of the deals we would have 9 players under contract with much more money to spend to shore up around them.   And Lamb would be a good trade asset on that contract at 15 ppg for 15 mil.  


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#24 powellrmp Posted 11 February 2019 - 12:13 PM

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So let's talk about reality and salary cap. Currently, the hornets are 3ish million dollars under the luxury tax threshold. 

 

IF Kemba lands on an All NBA Team, he can earn a 5/220 contract, if not the Hornets can max him out at 5/189.

 

With Lamb, Frank, and Walker off the books this summer, the Hornets have 29 million under the luxury tax.

 

 

And if I hearing the Lamb people correctly. We are actually having a conversation about signing both Kemba and Lamb this summer with 29 million of cap space before the luxury tax.


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#25 Adam42R Posted 11 February 2019 - 12:23 PM

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So let's talk about reality and salary cap. Currently, the hornets are 3ish million dollars under the luxury tax threshold. 

 

IF Kemba lands on an All NBA Team, he can earn a 5/220 contract, if not the Hornets can max him out at 5/189.

 

With Lamb, Frank, and Walker off the books this summer, the Hornets have 29 million under the luxury tax.

 

 

And if I hearing the Lamb people correctly. We are actually having a conversation about signing both Kemba and Lamb this summer with 29 million of cap space before the luxury tax.

 

I, and Stache, and I believe several others are saying that we are avoiding the repeater tax, not the tax.  I am in year two of this constant statement and made my whole treatise on why we went through the no-buyout Dwight gymnastics. We're hitting the tax next year, as sure as the Hindenburg hit that iceberg and as sure as the Titanic blew up, we are going right on past that tax line even if we don't resign Lamb.  Thus why we pretty much have no choice but Lamb because with his BR contract, he's the only high caliber SG we can obtain/retain that works with our salary constraints. 

 

What I don't know is what the impact is (hard cap) of having Tony and Devonte on the MLE which should preclude us from exceeding the hard cap.  I assume there are ways that isn't an impact otherwise we're not keeping Kemba or Lamb (either).


Here comes McRoberts, the throw to Walker, it's in the aaaaaiiiiirrrr, YESSSSS! Bobcats win it! My my my, Kemba Walker. Steve Martin - Toronto 12/18/2013
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#26 Mustachio Posted 11 February 2019 - 12:30 PM

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So let's talk about reality and salary cap. Currently, the hornets are 3ish million dollars under the luxury tax threshold. 

 

IF Kemba lands on an All NBA Team, he can earn a 5/220 contract, if not the Hornets can max him out at 5/189.

 

With Lamb, Frank, and Walker off the books this summer, the Hornets have 29 million under the luxury tax.

 

 

And if I hearing the Lamb people correctly. We are actually having a conversation about signing both Kemba and Lamb this summer with 29 million of cap space before the luxury tax.

 

 

This year is irrelevant. 

 

2019-2020 as is we have 30 million in cap room

2020-2021 as is we have 87.7 million in cap room

 

 

We have to go over the cap next year just to sign Kemba.  Lamb is gravy to that tax bill but won't affect us long term .  take away 55 (Kemba/Lamb) from 2020 season and we still have 32.7 million in cap room with a 9 man rotation in place.    

 

This is all without making any moves in the summer/trade deadline.  

 

In other words as we've been saying repeatedly.  It's just about our only move at this point to both field a semi-competitive team and keep our finances in check while building for the future at the same time.  


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#27 powellrmp Posted 11 February 2019 - 12:55 PM

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I, and Stache, and I believe several others are saying that we are avoiding the repeater tax, not the tax.  I am in year two of this constant statement and made my whole treatise on why we went through the no-buyout Dwight gymnastics. We're hitting the tax next year, as sure as the Hindenburg hit that iceberg and as sure as the Titanic blew up, we are going right on past that tax line even if we don't resign Lamb.  Thus why we pretty much have no choice but Lamb because with his BR contract, he's the only high caliber SG we can obtain/retain that works with our salary constraints. 

 

What I don't know is what the impact is (hard cap) of having Tony and Devonte on the MLE which should preclude us from exceeding the hard cap.  I assume there are ways that isn't an impact otherwise we're not keeping Kemba or Lamb (either).

 

So there's a couple things here. First, is that Jordan has been very firm about not going over the luxury tax line. Second, I was under the impression that even using Bird Rights to sign did not apply if it send the team's salary cap OVER the luxury tax line. As in, a team would not get punished for using a BR contract that pushed a team INTO the luxury tax, but rather a BR contract that even exceeded the luxury tax limit. Third, the Hornets have been crap for so long now-why not just play Monk for 2019/2020? Do we really need to do this all over again next season-just accept it and play Monk.

 

I understand that signing Lamb for a 3/40 million contract isn't a TON of money-but without Lamb you still have more money in the 2020 offseason to spend on Free Agents. This team is dying to sign a real SG to play with Kemba, like a Beal or Klay or whatever. Why dedicate more money to the position when you're hoping to bring in a big time SG. The less dead money the better. None of the contracts on the team were horrible when signed-Marvin, Zeller, MKG, Batum, etc. Its just that our salary cap is clogged with players with larger contracts than they really need. Why dedicate 3 years and 40+million dollars to another "meh" contract that gets in the way of signing bigger and better players. YEAH YEAH YEAH, I get it, in 2020 the Hornets have 80+million in cap space...but why not have another 10-15 million free by not having Lamb? 

 

 

And Mustachio-we absolutely do NOT have 30 million open this summer. Unless you aren't planning on drafting anyone...You have to sign your draft picks. So take that 30 million down to 25/26 million.


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#28 powellrmp Posted 11 February 2019 - 01:02 PM

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And just to be clear, I'm not saying that letting Lamb go and trotting out Monk as the starting SG is a sound plan, because its not. Its just that the team with Lamb isn't going to be any better next year.than what we have seen so far this season.

 

So accept that and stop spending money that isn't improving the team. Be bad next year, let's be very clear in what we have in Monk, let younger players develop, and have an extra 10-15 million to spend in 2020 with no Lamb contract.


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#29 Adam42R Posted 11 February 2019 - 01:42 PM

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So there's a couple things here. First, is that Jordan has been very firm about not going over the luxury tax line. Second, I was under the impression that even using Bird Rights to sign did not apply if it send the team's salary cap OVER the luxury tax line. As in, a team would not get punished for using a BR contract that pushed a team INTO the luxury tax, but rather a BR contract that even exceeded the luxury tax limit. Third, the Hornets have been crap for so long now-why not just play Monk for 2019/2020? Do we really need to do this all over again next season-just accept it and play Monk.

 

I understand that signing Lamb for a 3/40 million contract isn't a TON of money-but without Lamb you still have more money in the 2020 offseason to spend on Free Agents. This team is dying to sign a real SG to play with Kemba, like a Beal or Klay or whatever. Why dedicate more money to the position when you're hoping to bring in a big time SG. The less dead money the better. None of the contracts on the team were horrible when signed-Marvin, Zeller, MKG, Batum, etc. Its just that our salary cap is clogged with players with larger contracts than they really need. Why dedicate 3 years and 40+million dollars to another "meh" contract that gets in the way of signing bigger and better players. YEAH YEAH YEAH, I get it, in 2020 the Hornets have 80+million in cap space...but why not have another 10-15 million free by not having Lamb? 

 

 

And Mustachio-we absolutely do NOT have 30 million open this summer. Unless you aren't planning on drafting anyone...You have to sign your draft picks. So take that 30 million down to 25/26 million.

 

I would completely and absolutely not conflate Jordan's comments about the tax with respect to resigning Kemba.

 

I am not clear on what the second or third sentence mean.  However...  you absolutely can exceed the tax and apron to resign your own certain players, if you couldn't, you wouldn't have balloon tax payments from CLE and GSW and others over the last two-three years. Both of these guys with Bird contracts can exceed the cap and tax.  No outside free agent can be signed above the cap itself so we'd have a whole different financial dilemma to address if you wanted to replace both Kemba and Lamb full stop.

 

The only caveats that I understand around the hard cap to which you are referring is that we cannot use the MLE (or a sign-and-trade or the BAE).  Or in other words, if we use a S-n-T or those two exceptions, we're then hard capped to the apron - the luxury tax threshold plus a number that looks like a smidge under 1.05% of the luxury tax. I think and hope that only applies to the year you make that signing and thus we (re: Tony/Devonte) are fine after June 30th.  If that's the case, then we have the Taxpayer MLE and veteran minimum contracts available only from that point on (until July 1, 2020).  If someone knows this to be inaccurate, by all means, clue me in otherwise.

 

TUoRUEB.png

 

The argument of why do any of this, let's just play Monk is far more how to remain irrelevant than taking the best you can possibly field at a position and continue to have youth push vet for playing time. The constant concern for MJ's financial well being is interesting but in reality, zero concern of ours unless it puts him in a financial situation that would lead to the team's business instability.  Seeing he's nearly or at billionaire status, I think we're good.


Here comes McRoberts, the throw to Walker, it's in the aaaaaiiiiirrrr, YESSSSS! Bobcats win it! My my my, Kemba Walker. Steve Martin - Toronto 12/18/2013
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#30 powellrmp Posted 11 February 2019 - 02:36 PM

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No, I am not personally worried about Michael Jordan's checkbook, but Michael Jordan is. He has not been willing to exceed that hard cap thus far. So why would he now in order to sign Jeremy Lamb?

 

Its just one season, sure. But its extra millions of penalty money that will have to be paid. Why would Jordan pay extra millions in penalty for Jeremy Lamb?

 

So don't sign Lamb. Make Kemba's deal cap number fit the Hornets right under the lux tax cap THIS season and then spread out the money to the other seasons.


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#31 eshelmon Posted 11 February 2019 - 03:20 PM

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No, I am not personally worried about Michael Jordan's checkbook, but Michael Jordan is. He has not been willing to exceed that hard cap thus far. So why would he now in order to sign Jeremy Lamb?

 

Its just one season, sure. But its extra millions of penalty money that will have to be paid. Why would Jordan pay extra millions in penalty for Jeremy Lamb?

 

So don't sign Lamb. Make Kemba's deal cap number fit the Hornets right under the lux tax cap THIS season and then spread out the money to the other seasons.

 

 

I like the way Lamb has improved play and would like to sign but don't see us paying big money on him if we sign Kemba.  Especially if front office thinks Monk is going to take up primary minutes at SG, would expect we look to sign a Shelvin Macks contract type to go with other guards Parker, Graham, Bacon. 


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#32 Mustachio Posted 11 February 2019 - 04:11 PM

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No, I am not personally worried about Michael Jordan's checkbook, but Michael Jordan is. He has not been willing to exceed that hard cap thus far. So why would he now in order to sign Jeremy Lamb?

 

Its just one season, sure. But its extra millions of penalty money that will have to be paid. Why would Jordan pay extra millions in penalty for Jeremy Lamb?

 

So don't sign Lamb. Make Kemba's deal cap number fit the Hornets right under the lux tax cap THIS season and then spread out the money to the other seasons.

 

Are you listening?   The hard cap will be exceeded no matter what next year if you sign Kemba.  You on one hand suggest Kemba is signing for a 5/220 contract, while on the other hand saying we have less than 27 mil to spend.  You aren't squeezing an average of 44 million into an escalating pay scale that fits under the cap.  WE ARE GOING INTO LUX TAX NEXT YEAR.   Signing Lamb only increases the already impending tax penalty as Adam explains above clearly.   

 

 

You ask why would Jordan pay tax penalty for Lamb, when you should be asking why would Jordan go over the hard cap and then tank?   It's just not happening.  

 

And as far as your other comment about the team not improving if signing Lamb is kinda horseshit.   Lamb is 26, Monk is 20.  Players improve, Monk has, Lamb has every season so far.   

 

 

If you plan on competeing, plan on signing Kemba, and you plan on Monk being the eventual stud at SG.   Signing Lamb is the only option.  


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#33 powellrmp Posted 11 February 2019 - 04:38 PM

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Are you listening?   The hard cap will be exceeded no matter what next year if you sign Kemba.  You on one hand suggest Kemba is signing for a 5/220 contract, while on the other hand saying we have less than 27 mil to spend.  You aren't squeezing an average of 44 million into an escalating pay scale that fits under the cap.  WE ARE GOING INTO LUX TAX NEXT YEAR.   Signing Lamb only increases the already impending tax penalty as Adam explains above clearly.   

 

 

You ask why would Jordan pay tax penalty for Lamb, when you should be asking why would Jordan go over the hard cap and then tank?   It's just not happening.  

 

And as far as your other comment about the team not improving if signing Lamb is kinda horseshit.   Lamb is 26, Monk is 20.  Players improve, Monk has, Lamb has every season so far.   

 

 

If you plan on competeing, plan on signing Kemba, and you plan on Monk being the eventual stud at SG.   Signing Lamb is the only option.  

 

First off to respond to what you've included above. I am not "suggesting" a 5/220 contract. I am "stating" that if Kemba is selected to an all NBA team, he WILL be eligible for that contract. I feel that kemba will do 5/190. 

 

I am listening and we are disagreeing. I would like to see the team have even more flexibility next off season to sign a big time SG. I don't want Lamb's contract on the books. They'll have plenty of cap space in 2020, but I want to see even more cap space if Lamb isn't signed to a 3 year/40ish million dollar deal. We have the same players going into next season, I'm not expecting anything different as this year. I can handle another year of being disappointed to open more more cap space.

 

Lamb's 27th year on this earth isn't going to unlock some magical next level improvement to put the Hornets into the top 5 of the East. He's an above average stop gap rotation player that I don't feel like the team should continue to throw money at.


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#34 powellrmp Posted 11 February 2019 - 04:48 PM

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Jordan has not been willing to cross that tax threshold and it will not start this season. You can count on draft related trades happening and maneuvering that will keep the Hornets from going over that line. And even if Jordan was willing to exceed that line and pay more and more penalties that go with it, I have a hard time imagining its going to be for Jeremy Lamb.

 

As it stands, yes, Kemba's new deal will exceed the tax limit, but I expect there to be room cleared out particularly around draft related deals.


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#35 Chef Posted 11 February 2019 - 04:51 PM

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I, and Stache, and I believe several others are saying that we are avoiding the repeater tax, not the tax. I am in year two of this constant statement and made my whole treatise on why we went through the no-buyout Dwight gymnastics. We're hitting the tax next year, as sure as the Hindenburg hit that iceberg and as sure as the Titanic blew up, we are going right on past that tax line even if we don't resign Lamb. Thus why we pretty much have no choice but Lamb because with his BR contract, he's the only high caliber SG we can obtain/retain that works with our salary constraints.

What I don't know is what the impact is (hard cap) of having Tony and Devonte on the MLE which should preclude us from exceeding the hard cap. I assume there are ways that isn't an impact otherwise we're not keeping Kemba or Lamb (either).


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#36 Mustachio Posted 11 February 2019 - 05:21 PM

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First off to respond to what you've included above. I am not "suggesting" a 5/220 contract. I am "stating" that if Kemba is selected to an all NBA team, he WILL be eligible for that contract. I feel that kemba will do 5/190.

I am listening and we are disagreeing. I would like to see the team have even more flexibility next off season to sign a big time SG. I don't want Lamb's contract on the books. They'll have plenty of cap space in 2020, but I want to see even more cap space if Lamb isn't signed to a 3 year/40ish million dollar deal. We have the same players going into next season, I'm not expecting anything different as this year. I can handle another year of being disappointed to open more more cap space.

Lamb's 27th year on this earth isn't going to unlock some magical next level improvement to put the Hornets into the top 5 of the East. He's an above average stop gap rotation player that I don't feel like the team should continue to throw money at.




Who exactly do you plan on saving this cap space for in 2020?

I mean 28 year old *checks notes*... Allen Crabbe sounds enticing.

How about a 31 year old Jimmy Butler? Averaging 18 and 5 currently. Not far ahead of Lambs current 15 and 5.

Maybe we should hold out for 32 year old Eric Gordon and his current 16/2??

I guess there always Belinelli or treveon Graham in 2020 as well.

Lamb/Monk is better than anything we can get for the next 2 years at least... And it's not even really close.

Beal and Oladipo are the only forseeable readily available shooting guards and they are UFA in 2021 when Batum comes off the books.

Between Lamb Bacon and Monk, we are very capably set at sg. Worry about PF/C help.
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#37 Adam42R Posted 11 February 2019 - 05:41 PM

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First off to respond to what you've included above. I am not "suggesting" a 5/220 contract. I am "stating" that if Kemba is selected to an all NBA team, he WILL be eligible for that contract. I feel that kemba will do 5/190. 

 

I am listening and we are disagreeing. I would like to see the team have even more flexibility next off season to sign a big time SG. I don't want Lamb's contract on the books. They'll have plenty of cap space in 2020, but I want to see even more cap space if Lamb isn't signed to a 3 year/40ish million dollar deal. We have the same players going into next season, I'm not expecting anything different as this year. I can handle another year of being disappointed to open more more cap space.

 

Lamb's 27th year on this earth isn't going to unlock some magical next level improvement to put the Hornets into the top 5 of the East. He's an above average stop gap rotation player that I don't feel like the team should continue to throw money at.

 

We aren't getting Kemba w/out paying tax. Even if we could, and perhaps we can shimmy through that needle eye, we shouldn't try to figure out a way to get there with only 17 cents remaining in the budget. MJ would be far more in his business mind to pay a premium for Jeremy than a premium for some far cheaper SG corpse that offers none of the chemistry or even potentially same abilities of JLamb.

 
Today we stand at 103m for team salary come July 1.  We have 29m in luxury tax space for 2019 and 11 players under contract. Assuming we keep our two picks, you are trying to sign Kemba, a 1.8-2.0m FRP (assuming someone around 16-20) and a SRP with 29m. That seems both financially a very tough mount to climb but also pretty debilitating for in-season trades or acquisitions based on need.  The reality seems to me that we're likely paying 5-10m in tax for this scenario and that's not rolling out our best starting 5.
 
We are far better off signing both Kemba and Lamb and likely having an initial 15-20m tax bill that we can try (like a lot of teams did this trade deadline) to whittle back with trades to lower our tax hit vs paying a vet min/tax mle contract that we likely cannot move and will be paying taxes on regardless.  
 
And if the FO decides to try hula hoop through a Cheerio here, we'll likely be all the worse for it long term.
 
 
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Here comes McRoberts, the throw to Walker, it's in the aaaaaiiiiirrrr, YESSSSS! Bobcats win it! My my my, Kemba Walker. Steve Martin - Toronto 12/18/2013
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#38 Adam42R Posted 11 February 2019 - 05:41 PM

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Did we surrender when the Germans bombed pearl harbor?

 

OMFG, did we just become best friends?  I was 100% channeling my inner Bluto on iceberg and blew up haha!  I didn't know if anyone would get that. Awesome, fucking awesome!  My day is made.


Here comes McRoberts, the throw to Walker, it's in the aaaaaiiiiirrrr, YESSSSS! Bobcats win it! My my my, Kemba Walker. Steve Martin - Toronto 12/18/2013
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#39 Founding Hornet Posted 11 February 2019 - 05:59 PM

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So let's talk about reality and salary cap. Currently, the hornets are 3ish million dollars under the luxury tax threshold.

IF Kemba lands on an All NBA Team, he can earn a 5/220 contract, if not the Hornets can max him out at 5/189.

With Lamb, Frank, and Walker off the books this summer, the Hornets have 29 million under the luxury tax.


And if I hearing the Lamb people correctly. We are actually having a conversation about signing both Kemba and Lamb this summer with 29 million of cap space before the luxury tax.


Yep
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#40 powellrmp Posted 11 February 2019 - 06:04 PM

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Hey founding-I can't see all of your post. Check your formatting, I'd like to hear you you have to say.

Oh wait nvm. I see it now. Phone problem on my end
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