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#1 dnbman Posted 24 June 2019 - 05:46 PM

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Since discussion on Monk started to dominate discussion in other threads, I started a new one here. 

 

To summarize some views: 

  • Most people agree that taking Monk at the time was the right pick. The quick rise of Donovan Mitchell questioned the pick. However, the jury is still out. 
  • Monk is very young and still relatively raw. He could be an amazing shooting guard at some point. 
  • He shows he has gifts at various times. The questions are can he score relatively reliably and can he make sure the rest of his game is sound enough that it doesn't hurt the team? 
  • At the moment, he's not playing in the summer league. While it's not clear why, Kupchak suggested that they'd like for him to be there. There's a variety of reasons why it makes sense for him to skip summer league. Summer league is not necessary for his continued development. However, some feel that it's a good opportunity for him to prove himself. 
  • As Monk is still valuable, he may be worth trading to achieve other team goals if we don't think he's going to develop into a great player here or otherwise.

Moving forward, here are some of the biggest questions. (I may pull in language from other people's posts. Not intending to plagiarize, just too lazy to look up who said things.) 

 

  1. Does he have that "it" factor? Is he the type of player that might be special. Some people see a highly athletic player that can score quickly and make some fancy passes. Does he have that x-factor that may one day lead us to playoff success? 
  2. Development: what are reasonable expectations for his improvement? Is it just that he needs more playing time or does he need to prove himself in practice that he's going to be a positive contributor? 
  3. How long do we stick with him. He's very young and only going into year 3. However, we've had a few players that we hoped would get over some hump but never really did. It would be painful to have another draft pick that we simply let walk and didn't get any compensation for. 
  4. If we keep him, what's a reasonable vision a couple of years from now? What kind of player is he? 

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#2 dav7z Posted 24 June 2019 - 07:01 PM

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He's lazy both coaches has said as much . He has tons of talent and Don't want to do the extra to get better. He thinks he's better than what he is and no one can tell him what to do. He needs to see the light or he will be out of the league quick . If he cared he would be in summer camp as you say Mitch asked and be with the team working out ever day .No Lamb is a big chance in it's self. I bet Bacon beats him out at the two.


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#3 buckets Posted 24 June 2019 - 07:13 PM

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Like I’ve said about Monk on this forum before. Look at his splits. In his career so far, in games he’s played 20+ minutes he averages about 14.5/2/3 shooting 42% from the field and 36% from 3 in an average of 24 minutes a game. There is a DRASTIC drop off in games where he’s played below 20 minutes. The problem is he’s played below 20 minutes FAR more than above. Monk is the type of player who needs minutes to be productive. We love Kemba so much that we forget the games where he struggles for an entire half and then has a good 2nd half to make up for it. Monks in a position where he doesn’t get the opportunity to make up for struggling half the time. I’ve said it before and I still stand by it. If Monk got CJ McCollum minutes he’d be a CJ McCollum caliber player.

From another thread......

Could be you’re measuring an outcome bias where Monk plays more, on average, against weaker competition including blowouts and late-season tankathons. His numbers vs tier 1, tier 2, and tier 3 teams reflect this as do his q4 numbers with back benchers in garbage time and weaker competition.

BTW this isn’t a knock on Malik, just a reality for young a fringe rotation players. Hernangomez is another extreme of shining statistically during garbage minutes.

On the positive side Bacons numbers seem to hold in competitive minutes vs PO teams which could be a number of factors like physical size, decision-making, and usage flexibility that Monk doesn’t possess as of yet. Or it could be a smallish sample.
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#4 Whiz Kid Posted 24 June 2019 - 07:20 PM

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From another thread......

Could be you’re measuring an outcome bias where Monk plays more, on average, against weaker competition including blowouts and late-season tankathons. His numbers vs tier 1, tier 2, and tier 3 teams reflect this as do his q4 numbers with back benchers in garbage time and weaker competition.

BTW this isn’t a knock on Malik, just a reality for young a fringe rotation players. Hernangomez is another extreme of shining statistically during garbage minutes.

On the positive side Bacons numbers seem to hold in competitive minutes vs PO teams which could be a number of factors like physical size, decision-making, and usage flexibility that Monk doesn’t possess as of yet. Or it could be a smallish sample.


I just did a quick look at the splits, not sure of the actual opponents in that 50 game sample size. I think that 50 games in his 2 seasons is decent enough for there to be some sort of credence to the claims of Monk being more productive and efficient when given more minutes.
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#5 Whiz Kid Posted 24 June 2019 - 07:22 PM

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Side note, it’s kinda saddening that Monk has only played over 20 minutes in 50 out of 136 career games played on 2 non playoff teams.

Edit: It’s actually only 46 games.
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#6 buckets Posted 24 June 2019 - 07:28 PM

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Being honest Monk lost when Clifford was fired.. Borrego really needs to be better at identifying player strengths and calling specific sets. In that way Monk is similar to Batum and Frank who had most of their off screen movement, pin downs, post action etc removed in favor of PnR every possession.

For his part Monk is an extreme of strengths/weakness - I’d cater to his off ball ability and PnR dive game with Zeller and WH as opposed to Kemba’s strengths of on-ball and paired with PnP bigs who provide attacking space.

Monk is also a gifted full court player but for whatever reason Borrego didn’t really follow through on his preseason promise of pace/space.
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#7 Potato Posted 24 June 2019 - 07:48 PM

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He's lazy both coaches has said as much . He has tons of talent and Don't want to do the extra to get better. He thinks he's better than what he is and no one can tell him what to do. He needs to see the light or he will be out of the league quick . If he cared he would be in summer camp as you say Mitch asked and be with the team working out ever day .No Lamb is a big chance in it's self. I bet Bacon beats him out at the two.

This kind of seems like a really garbage and offensive post. I'm not saying there may not be some truth to that, but what evidence do you have that should lead me to believe any of this is true? This is a bold critique and really should be backed up with a link/source. For all we know, the team could have told him not to come to Summer League. Don't get me wrong, I've gone on the record for saying I'd love to see him in Vegas and think it could help him. But I don't think it's fair to say he's not there because he simply doesn't want to be. I also think it's extremely unfair to say he has no work ethic and doesn't want to be good. 

 

As far as Monk goes, it's hard to be too high on him right now. At the end of his rookie season he looked legit as a scorer and I was thinking he was going to be in for a big improvement. Unfortunately that never came to fruition, but it'd still be dumb to give up on him. He's 21!! I think one negative about the one and done era is that we expect players to break out way too young. The dude is still crazy young. I LOVED Monk out of college. When I'm scouting I'd rather see a dude sporadically go off as opposed to averaging, say, 15 PPG on a regular basis. When Monk was at UK, when he was hitting his shots he was unguardable. Did not matter what you did, he could create his shot and score as good as anyone. We've even seen flashes of that here, but the consistency just is not there. I thought at a bare minimum he'd be great as a spot up guy now, but he hasn't even been that.

 

I really do hope we keep him for one more year. Let it be a make it or break it season. With Lamb gone he should be due for some consistent minutes, maybe he can emerge as our sixth man. I have no idea if that post is true about him having no work ethic, but either way he's got to know this is a huge season for him especially if he stays here. Even if he does get more consistent scoring, he has a long way to go on the defensive end. 

 

TLDR; I haven't given up on him, but he best take a big step forward this season.


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#8 buckets Posted 24 June 2019 - 07:49 PM

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I just did a quick look at the splits, not sure of the actual opponents in that 50 game sample size. I think that 50 games in his 2 seasons is decent enough for there to be some sort of credence to the claims of Monk being more productive and efficient when given more minutes.


And I’d argue his coaches have protected him somewhat, IMO a kick in the pants given how badly fans crush them for not playing Malik enough.

Clifford was like that with Lamb early on too. He pretty much timed Lamb’s minutes against bench players while paired with maximum front court spacing possible on Charlotte’s roster. But instead of realizing how’s/why’s of Cliffords pattern they instead used those Goldilocks conditions created for Lamb to criticize Clifford because extrapolation or whatever.
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#9 buckets Posted 24 June 2019 - 07:55 PM

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Monk was 72nd percentile in C&S last season, 64% guarded and 73% unguarded. He was also 88% from the line - those are legit shooting chops masked by heavy on-ball usage running PnR he isn’t suited or ready for. And again, it’s a coach-player issue not just a Malik issue.
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#10 Chef Posted 24 June 2019 - 08:00 PM

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This kind of seems like a really garbage and offensive post. I'm not saying there may not be some truth to that, but what evidence do you have that should lead me to believe any of this is true? This is a bold critique and really should be backed up with a link/source. For all we know, the team could have told him not to come to Summer League. Don't get me wrong, I've gone on the record for saying I'd love to see him in Vegas and think it could help him. But I don't think it's fair to say he's not there because he simply doesn't want to be. I also think it's extremely unfair to say he has no work ethic and doesn't want to be good.

As far as Monk goes, it's hard to be too high on him right now. At the end of his rookie season he looked legit as a scorer and I was thinking he was going to be in for a big improvement. Unfortunately that never came to fruition, but it'd still be dumb to give up on him. He's 21!! I think one negative about the one and done era is that we expect players to break out way too young. The dude is still crazy young. I LOVED Monk out of college. When I'm scouting I'd rather see a dude sporadically go off as opposed to averaging, say, 15 PPG on a regular basis. When Monk was at UK, when he was hitting his shots he was unguardable. Did not matter what you did, he could create his shot and score as good as anyone. We've even seen flashes of that here, but the consistency just is not there. I thought at a bare minimum he'd be great as a spot up guy now, but he hasn't even been that.

I really do hope we keep him for one more year. Let it be a make it or break it season. With Lamb gone he should be due for some consistent minutes, maybe he can emerge as our sixth man. I have no idea if that post is true about him having no work ethic, but either way he's got to know this is a huge season for him especially if he stays here. Even if he does get more consistent scoring, he has a long way to go on the defensive end.

TLDR; I haven't given up on him, but he best take a big step forward this season.


This is the third or fourth post to suggest we are intimating that monk is going against the organizations wishes to not be at summer league when there have been multiple posts with the copied quite from Mitch very much suggesting that he would like to see him there.

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#11 dnbman Posted 24 June 2019 - 08:00 PM

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Monk was 72nd percentile in C&S last season, 64% guarded and 73% unguarded. He was also 88% from the line - those are legit shooting chops masked by heavy on-ball usage running PnR he isn’t suited or ready for. And again, it’s a coach-player issue not just a Malik issue.

 

I'm going to need you to dumb it down for your audience, which in this case is me.


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#12 Chef Posted 24 June 2019 - 08:01 PM

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Monk was 72nd percentile in C&S last season, 64% guarded and 73% unguarded. He was also 88% from the line - those are legit shooting chops masked by heavy on-ball usage running PnR he isn’t suited or ready for. And again, it’s a coach-player issue not just a Malik issue.


As a coach it is tough to cater to his particular brand if offensive basketball and at the same time endure the repetitive and often fatal defensive and transition errors.

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#13 Chef Posted 24 June 2019 - 08:02 PM

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I'm going to need you to dumb it down for your audience, which in this case is me.


Monk should be played like Klay Thompson not Steph curry

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#14 Swedd523 Posted 24 June 2019 - 08:02 PM

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Good idea.  I can see why Ziggy gives you a higher mod salary than me

 

My thoughts on Monk:

 

I think he's a supremely talented offensive player.  It was a big part of the reason why I was cool with the pick.  We talked about Mitchell a lot, but nobody reasonably could've predicted his scoring acumen in the league.  Most of the discussion around him (Mitchell) was that he was a combo guard tweener who wasn't a good enough ball handler/distributor to be a PG and not big enough or a good enough shooter to be a SG.  Monk had a lot of the same concerns but they differed in that Mitchell seemed to have the better frame and more potential as a defensive player while Monk had the worse frame but appeared to be a better scorer and shooter. 

 

Looking back at the 2017 draft, there really aren't a lot of reasonable guys the teams passed on. 

 

-Mitchell, of course, has performed better but I still hold that he's relatively overrated as a player

-Adebayo has been solid but unspectacular

-John Collins is a stud (and a few folks here were singing his praises pre-draft), but he has significantly outgrown expectations

-Jarrett Allen has been pretty solid

-Kyle Kuzma has been a great scorer

 

It's honestly not very surprising that 4 to 5 guys have been better.  You can probably go through most any draft and find 3-5 guys drafted outside the lottery who exceeded expectations.

 

 

As for his play:

 

Despite being gifted offensively, something just seems... off with him.  I don't know if he's selfish, or has a low BBIQ, or just hasn't figured it out yet, but he just hasn't put it together and you can tell on the floor because he misses a lot of assignments, open looks, and generally makes more than his share of bonehead plays.

 

With that being said, is that what is preventing him from seeing floor time?  Or is there more going on behind the scenes?  I don't know if he works his ass off or not but I will admit that he does kinda put off that vibe of being an "I got mine" guy.  No idea if that's right or not, and it's not fair to him if it's false.  His per36 numbers from rookie to sophomore season don't really show much improvement, which is worrying

 

I will also say there's got to be a reason why guys like Miles and (especially) Bacon have already seen more floor time and starts despite making many of the same youngster mistakes.  What is going on in practice and in workouts to give Cliff and now Borrego more trust in the other two young wings?

 

I still have faith in Monk's potential, but he's rapidly approaching "prove it" territory for me


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#15 Potato Posted 24 June 2019 - 08:10 PM

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Good idea.  I can see why Ziggy gives you a higher mod salary than me

 

My thoughts on Monk:

 

I think he's a supremely talented offensive player.  It was a big part of the reason why I was cool with the pick.  We talked about Mitchell a lot, but nobody reasonably could've predicted his scoring acumen in the league.  Most of the discussion around him (Mitchell) was that he was a combo guard tweener who wasn't a good enough ball handler/distributor to be a PG and not big enough or a good enough shooter to be a SG.  Monk had a lot of the same concerns but they differed in that Mitchell seemed to have the better frame and more potential as a defensive player while Monk had the worse frame but appeared to be a better scorer and shooter. 

 

Looking back at the 2017 draft, there really aren't a lot of reasonable guys the teams passed on. 

 

-Mitchell, of course, has performed better but I still hold that he's relatively overrated as a player

-Adebayo has been solid but unspectacular

-John Collins is a stud (and a few folks here were singing his praises pre-draft), but he has significantly outgrown expectations

-Jarrett Allen has been pretty solid

-Kyle Kuzma has been a great scorer

 

It's honestly not very surprising that 4 to 5 guys have been better.  You can probably go through most any draft and find 3-5 guys drafted outside the lottery who exceeded expectations.

 

 

As for his play:

 

Despite being gifted offensively, something just seems... off with him.  I don't know if he's selfish, or has a low BBIQ, or just hasn't figured it out yet, but he just hasn't put it together and you can tell on the floor because he misses a lot of assignments, open looks, and generally makes more than his share of bonehead plays.

 

With that being said, is that what is preventing him from seeing floor time?  Or is there more going on behind the scenes?  I don't know if he works his ass off or not but I will admit that he does kinda put off that vibe of being an "I got mine" guy.  No idea if that's right or not, and it's not fair to him if it's false.  His per36 numbers from rookie to sophomore season don't really show much improvement, which is worrying

 

I will also say there's got to be a reason why guys like Miles and (especially) Bacon have already seen more floor time and starts despite making many of the same youngster mistakes.  What is going on in practice and in workouts to give Cliff and now Borrego more trust in the other two young wings?

 

I still have faith in Monk's potential, but he's rapidly approaching "prove it" territory for me

Okay I didn't want to start this conversation because I thought I was overthinking things but, dude, same! I remember when Miles first got drafted Miles publicly talked about how excited he was to play with Malik, like he thought they would be the future of the Hornets. I also remember Miles put on his Instagram story one night he was playing 2k and put he and Malik in the starting lineup. Now, Miles and Bacon seem to have much more of a bond than Malik does. And who are two guys that improved heavily last year? Miles and Bacon. They made a rap song together and seem to have grown super close. They also both seem to be incredibly hard workers, but for some reason Malik doesn't seem to be as much a part of their circle. And maybe he is, but idk. I've noticed this too, we're probably just overthinking shit but damn


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#16 Chef Posted 24 June 2019 - 08:14 PM

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Okay I didn't want to start this conversation because I thought I was overthinking things but, dude, same! I remember when Miles first got drafted Miles publicly talked about how excited he was to play with Malik, like he thought they would be the future of the Hornets. I also remember Miles put on his Instagram story one night he was playing 2k and put he and Malik in the starting lineup. Now, Miles and Bacon seem to have much more of a bond than Malik does. And who are two guys that improved heavily last year? Miles and Bacon. They made a rap song together and seem to have grown super close. They also both seem to be incredibly hard workers, but for some reason Malik doesn't seem to be as much a part of their circle. And maybe he is, but idk. I've noticed this too, we're probably just overthinking shit but damn


Nope not overthinking. Could be wrong but not over thinking. It is so easy to get a feel for team dynamics by just watching the bench and player interactions. Can not be overstated enough.

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#17 buckets Posted 24 June 2019 - 08:21 PM

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I'm going to need you to dumb it down for your audience, which in this case is me.


Malik’s catch & shoot efficiency was entire NBA 73rd percentile. He’s nearly equally as good, on a relative basis, at shooting C&S while guarded as he is unguarded. He truly is an extremely talented young shooter.

Go down the list of play types and his numbers increasingly deteriorate with added ball handling responsibility. He’s absolutely horrendous in PnR (22md percentile) which matches the eye test of his inability to attack the paint and instead settles for probing pull up jumpers he is gifted at.

It’s also why he’s ideally suited with a hard diving big sucking in defenses. You can play Malik all you want with an elite pick and pop big but Malik’s basketball DNA will never allow him to take advantage of the space like Kemba who very much wants to go down hill. Malik is also taller to pass over the defense unlike Kemba.

Malik has very little in common with primary handlers or 6th man types he’s compared to like Lou Williams....Williams entered the league going to the basket. IMO it’s up to CHA coaching staff to harness Malik’s ISO pull up potential sans screen help + primarily channeling his inner Wayne Ellington, Bellinelli, Klay, Korver, etc...
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#18 Adam42R Posted 24 June 2019 - 08:25 PM

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Seems to me that most folks see that many of us hypothecize trades that pull in Monk and mistake that for giving up on him. In my mind, it's not that so much as I don't know whom else on this roster is so cost effective and can butter up a trade as well. Miles?  No, completely unproven so far and any notion someone had of him as a bounding out of the gym athlete was likely already set before he donned Teal. Devonte? No way, you guys with the stats give all the reason if the shooting/finishing eye test didn't affirm what folks thought about him lower than where he was picked last year. Bacon is a maybe but trailing off on the John Collins comment above, the only persons that would know JC's value coming out of college were those who watched every game -- same way we likely over-evaluate Bacon. Only 'cause we saw his every game to determine value.  Ergo, we could use Bacon in a trade possibly (not really sure) but he's worth far more to us than he would be to a prospective receiving team. E.g. Malik is as much an unknown today as he was when drafted, two coaches and ever-changing roster config makes sure of that and nothing should suggest he cannot shoot in the NBA.  And for that, he's likely the only one of our cheap youngsters that has value above his 3m price tag.

 

Long way of saying, I would not be giving up on Monk to just shed salary. But I would use him to try lure better talent with a trade that also does that salary reduction thing. In other words, he's still got much value in my eyes. 


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#19 dnbman Posted 24 June 2019 - 08:27 PM

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Malik’s catch & shoot efficiency was entire NBA 73rd percentile. He’s nearly equally as good, on a relative basis, at shooting C&S while guarded as he is unguarded. He truly is an extremely talented young shooter.

Go down the list of play types and his numbers increasingly deteriorate with added ball handling responsibility. He’s absolutely horrendous in PnR (22md percentile) which matches the eye test of his inability to attack the paint and instead settles for probing pull up jumpers he is gifted at.

It’s also why he’s ideally suited with a hard diving big sucking in defenses. You can play Malik all you want with an elite pick and pop big but Malik’s basketball DNA will never allow him to take advantage of the space like Kemba who very much wants to go down hill. Malik is also taller to pass over the defense unlike Kemba.

Malik has very little in common with primary handlers or 6th man types he’s compared to like Lou Williams....Williams entered the league going to the basket. IMO it’s up to CHA coaching staff to harness Malik’s ISO pull up potential sans screen help + primarily channeling his inner Wayne Ellington, Bellinelli, Klay, Korver, etc...

 

I know this is a small piece, but do you think playing him with a strong passing big like Washington might be helpful? 


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#20 Chef Posted 24 June 2019 - 08:32 PM

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I know this is a small piece, but do you think playing him with a strong passing big like Washington might be helpful?


Assuming Washington passes like that in the NBA, absolutely. Create the low block mismatch, force the double or help side rotation, he passes opposite side to a spotted up monk.

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