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#41 Adam42R Posted 08 November 2019 - 08:11 AM

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disagree. i think it is exactly who they are. 4 wins: bulls, kings, warriors (g league team), pacers (1/2 g league) average margin of victory 4pts. 4 losses: lakers, clippers, wolves, celtics average margin of loss 20 pts.

this is a bad team. they surprisingly have a few bright spots but overall they are a very sub par professional team and that was on full display. they got outplayed. it wasn't the "moment" it was the talent.

I think this is taking the small sample size far too informatively. Last night was going to be odd. It played out like a teenager trying to beat dad at something the teen has only had a couple good results so far. I agree our losses are likely a -80pts to our wins at a +10, but right now, I'm not putting much stock in point differential. If we're still a -9ppg at game 30, I'll be worried. I just don't think it's that meaningful right now. And I don't know it matters. If we've got a better W/L than our okay dictates, good on them.
Here comes McRoberts, the throw to Walker, it's in the aaaaaiiiiirrrr, YESSSSS! Bobcats win it! My my my, Kemba Walker. Steve Martin - Toronto 12/18/2013
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#42 Adam42R Posted 08 November 2019 - 09:02 AM

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I should clarify, while I don't think we should be confused with a good team or a playoff team, I can see a world where we can play to 2nd in the SE Div. And while I don't think we're a .500 team, I don't think we're as bad as last night or the LAL game.
Here comes McRoberts, the throw to Walker, it's in the aaaaaiiiiirrrr, YESSSSS! Bobcats win it! My my my, Kemba Walker. Steve Martin - Toronto 12/18/2013
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#43 Chef Posted 08 November 2019 - 09:16 AM

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I should clarify, while I don't think we should be confused with a good team or a playoff team, I can see a world where we can play to 2nd in the SE Div. And while I don't think we're a .500 team, I don't think we're as bad as last night or the LAL game.

 

i think this speaks far more to the division than the team


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#44 QC Thundercats Posted 08 November 2019 - 09:28 AM

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Very weird game to watch.  Almost like the crowd was so used to cheering on Kemba, but couldn't do it because he's on the enemy's team now.  Actually seeing Kemba's mom wearing that green, that wasn't a good feeling.

 

0-6 start for both Kemba and Terry in a revenge game probably contributed to the weird mood.  For all of Terry's physical talents, he seems to make the game hard on himself.  He never really sets his feet when he shoots, always seeming off balance.  His drives don't really seem to have a purpose, like he's driving at night in dense fog - he has an idea where he should go, but can't really see shit.

 

And with Graham actually having great form, and hitting shots, and knowing how to probe with the basketball in the lane, and how to change pace, and how to drive into a big man to get your shot off in the paint, the contrast is veeeeeeery stark.  He has natural instincts that can't be taught, but also learned the many tricks on how to beat physically bigger or quicker guys with savvy.

 

PJ's springiness on defense is a nice surprise.  He always seemed like someone who was athletic enough, but he was continuously swatting away shots at the rim.  Struggled getting into a rhythm, but 5 blocks and 8 rebounds shows it will never sap his effort.

 

Miles has been looking really nice to me lately.  I like how he's not hesitant to look for his shot.  And this is actually a good trait that Graham and PJ also have - if there is a shot opportunity, they take it.  All our lottery picks before then always seemed to not want to pull the trigger, even if they were wide open.  Very refreshing change.  Miles 3 ball game is much improved, if he can just develop a good go to move and a counter move, he can get his shot off all day.

 

The trials and tribulations of the Martins have been interesting.  I guess they are the guard version of the Lopez brothers, one good on offense and one good on defense.  Caleb was a revelation in the preseason to earn his spot, but can't get on the court.  Cody had looked disappointing, but now has seeming elite level NBA defense.  The length and speed to keep up with Brogdon and Kemba on a few plays was eye popping.  He needs to just work on set 3s for his career, and we'll finally have our ace 3 and D player.

 

This bunch is fun to watch, but the turnovers are going to be what ends most of their nights.  They're just sloppy with their passes and dribbling right now, which I'm sure will improve.  But when they play a more slow it down defensive team like Boston, all the warts will come out.


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#45 Chef Posted 08 November 2019 - 09:30 AM

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6. PJ Washington's hook shot

The Hornets aren't as good as their record. Every win has been close. Every loss has been a blowout. They are 4-4 with a minus-61-point differential.

But they are fun, and the trio of <a data-ipb="nomediaparse" data-cke-saved-href="http://www.espn.com/...3133601/devonte" href="http://www.espn.com/nba/player/_/id/3133601/devonte" -graham"="">Devonte' Graham,  Miles Bridges and rookie Washington -- along with the coming lottery pick -- provides reason for real optimism.

Washington's not a star, but he already does most of what you want from a supporting frontcourt player. He defends multiple positions, and has even played some center.

He has hit 45% from deep, meaning he's dangerous spotting up or picking-and-popping. When he rolls to the rim, he rolls hard. He rolls to inflict pain. Switch those plays, and Washington punishes smaller defenders. He already has one of the league's sweetest, softest jump hooks:

Oh, baby. Washington sees Richaun Holmes coming, and lofts that thing into the rafters. Charlotte has scored 1.32 points per possession any time Washington shoots from the post or passes to a teammate who fires right away -- a number that would have led all regular post-up threats last season, per Second Spectrum.

 

zach lowe scouting our planet

 

edit: just finished the article, we have covered at least 4 of his sections in the nba thread. buckets = lowe, grassy knoll...not so sure.


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#46 buckets Posted 08 November 2019 - 10:07 AM

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disagree. i think it is exactly who they are. 4 wins: bulls, kings, warriors (g league team), pacers (1/2 g league) average margin of victory 4pts. 4 losses: lakers, clippers, wolves, celtics average margin of loss 20 pts.

this is a bad team. they surprisingly have a few bright spots but overall they are a very sub par professional team and that was on full display. they got outplayed. it wasn't the "moment" it was the talent.

I believe this is the proper perspective. You can see the difference in H2 when better teams step on the gas. Hornets just don’t have the horses most nights to overcome the talent gap unless draining a ton of 3’s. Even Chicago tried big-timing CHA but got got cause, well, Chicago.

Hornets aren’t your standard edition miserable-type bad though. They are kinda fun, they do compete, and have several athletic+ NBA bodies on top of a handful of smart players who genuinely want to do the right thing. In that way this edition of Charlotte = 2017-18 Brooklyn. And like that BKN squad, Hornets have been a bottom 8 or so team when adjusting for opponent.
#Chodidthemath
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#47 buckets Posted 08 November 2019 - 11:19 AM

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FWIW the Hornets very consistent rankings:

Offense Overall: 25
Half Court: 22
Transition: 21

Defense Overall: 22
Half Court: 23
Transition: 24

To blatantly oversimplify Charlotte is young and has an on-ball problem, offensively and defensively. The efficiency results also serve as a good reminder how vastly different the organization is measuring success this season and likely for 2 to 3 seasons.
#Chodidthemath
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#48 eshelmon Posted 08 November 2019 - 12:10 PM

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Team better than expected offensive talent...helped balance out among worst in league in key areas like defense, TO, Rebs, FTs.  Reversal of previous years teased 'MKG' teams, among best in those "keys" but low in offensive skills.    

 

Top 4 in minutes played new FO guys show ability to at least be solid parts of NBA rotation.  FO transitions filling roster at PG and forwards shows some promise for teams future.  SG next priority unless holdovers turn things around.


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#49 GeraldWallaceMVP Posted 08 November 2019 - 01:57 PM

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#50 justin credible Posted 08 November 2019 - 04:42 PM

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[quote name="JGib23" post="1119480" timestamp="1573185112"]

Rozier was so bad tonight (have mentioned that I hate that contract?)

I think the kids were nervous about the national TV game because they played very tight.


We have 3 players that I’m interested in keeping long term (Graham, PJ, and Miles) everyone else on the roster is just a guy

If we had a decent 2 and 5 this team wouldn't be bad as long as devonte was starting
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#51 Adam42R Posted 08 November 2019 - 11:20 PM

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I believe this is the proper perspective. You can see the difference in H2 when better teams step on the gas. Hornets just don’t have the horses most nights to overcome the talent gap unless draining a ton of 3’s. Even Chicago tried big-timing CHA but got got cause, well, Chicago.

Hornets aren’t your standard edition miserable-type bad though. They are kinda fun, they do compete, and have several athletic+ NBA bodies on top of a handful of smart players who genuinely want to do the right thing. In that way this edition of Charlotte = 2017-18 Brooklyn. And like that BKN squad, Hornets have been a bottom 8 or so team when adjusting for opponent.

I don't feel it's as lopsided as I think you guys do. I don't think we're in the top half of the east but I think we have a decent shot at better than most of the rest. E.g. I can see a world we challenge last year's team in terms of results. Might not be the win total but first out of the playoffs and still playing meaningful hoops in April seems possible.

If we get to 20 games and are above .500, do you not see a team that might (possibly foolishly) start to look at this season vs the strategic future? I wouldn't be stunned. That might just be my optimism cup overfloweth I realize.

Think we'll start to see what we're made of the next few games.
Here comes McRoberts, the throw to Walker, it's in the aaaaaiiiiirrrr, YESSSSS! Bobcats win it! My my my, Kemba Walker. Steve Martin - Toronto 12/18/2013
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#52 Chef Posted 09 November 2019 - 07:06 AM

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I don't feel it's as lopsided as I think you guys do. I don't think we're in the top half of the east but I think we have a decent shot at better than most of the rest. E.g. I can see a world we challenge last year's team in terms of results. Might not be the win total but first out of the playoffs and still playing meaningful hoops in April seems possible.

If we get to 20 games and are above .500, do you not see a team that might (possibly foolishly) start to look at this season vs the strategic future? I wouldn't be stunned. That might just be my optimism cup overfloweth I realize.

Think we'll start to see what we're made of the next few games.


This is why I like this forum so much. Differing pov's with the chance to see how it proves out.

I also want to warn you to prepare for the 2-14 slide that is coming at some point.

Holding out hope that Mike sells.

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#53 dnbman Posted 09 November 2019 - 07:20 AM

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I also want to warn you to prepare for the 2-14 slide that is coming at some point.

 

I believe something like that is likely. That will be the biggest test: how do guys respond? Do we dig deeper and work harder or start to pout?

 

That's the only thing that concerns me about the Rozier/Graham situation. I'm perfectly happy with the setup the way it is. I don't want it to turn into a PG controversy that ultimately harms player development rather than helps it.


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#54 Adam42R Posted 09 November 2019 - 07:32 AM

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This is why I like this forum so much. Differing pov's with the chance to see how it proves out.

I also want to warn you to prepare for the 2-14 slide that is coming at some point.

We very well may. But I think the bigger concern you guys should have is over achievers vs under. E.g. the worst case isn't a 2-14 run.
Here comes McRoberts, the throw to Walker, it's in the aaaaaiiiiirrrr, YESSSSS! Bobcats win it! My my my, Kemba Walker. Steve Martin - Toronto 12/18/2013
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#55 Chef Posted 09 November 2019 - 08:34 AM

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We very well may. But I think the bigger concern you guys should have is over achievers vs under. E.g. the worst case isn't a 2-14 run.


Overachieving because the young guys develop into real NBA basketball players is the best possible scenario. I am very much pro-play for the draft pick, but if the team is more talented than I expected that is great.

If the team is eeking out close wins against mid and bad teams because borrego is playing veterans at the cost of developing young guys, that is the worse case scenario.

Making trades at the deadline for vets at the sake of the young guys is worst case scenario. Trading draft picks is the worst case scenario.

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#56 Adam42R Posted 09 November 2019 - 10:20 AM

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Overachieving because the young guys develop into real NBA basketball players is the best possible scenario. I am very much pro-play for the draft pick, but if the team is more talented than I expected that is great.

If the team is eeking out close wins against mid and bad teams because borrego is playing veterans at the cost of developing young guys, that is the worse case scenario.

Making trades at the deadline for vets at the sake of the young guys is worst case scenario. Trading draft picks is the worst case scenario.

 

But he's done exactly that if you want to be absolutely critical - we won against IND only because of Biz. And for every person standing in the arena at that time, it was wanted. But it's at odds with what you are saying because how many minutes exactly did Monk + Bacon + Willy + CaMartin play?  That's the group we should - by the notions of play the young guys mantra - see vs. Biz + Cody Z. + Marvin. So it's at odds that a game like IND is the worst case scenario. And if we are setting up to build through trades vs. free agency, we are directly lined up to do the worst per your definition. 

 

I am not really of an opinion on this stuff btw. I am just becoming aware that some feel that any and every win is a mistake and I don't buy that (not saying you are in that camp) and also aware that we need vets on the floor to have the younger guys see leadership in action. And at the same time, we have what looks like a really easy schedule immediately in front of us and I have to think that regardless of fan and media wants, JB wants to win as much as possible. I could see us in mid-December with a better than expected win total looking at improving now vs doing what might be longer term prudent if for no other reason that we've left ourselves no other options w/ a no-FA, only-Trade approach to team growth.


Here comes McRoberts, the throw to Walker, it's in the aaaaaiiiiirrrr, YESSSSS! Bobcats win it! My my my, Kemba Walker. Steve Martin - Toronto 12/18/2013
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#57 buckets Posted 09 November 2019 - 10:33 AM

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I don't feel it's as lopsided as I think you guys do. I don't think we're in the top half of the east but I think we have a decent shot at better than most of the rest. E.g. I can see a world we challenge last year's team in terms of results. Might not be the win total but first out of the playoffs and still playing meaningful hoops in April seems possible.
If we get to 20 games and are above .500, do you not see a team that might (possibly foolishly) start to look at this season vs the strategic future? I wouldn't be stunned. That might just be my optimism cup overfloweth I realize.
Think we'll start to see what we're made of the next few games.


For the record I had Charlotte winning 30 games. A reasonable band for that number is 25 to 35, give or take.

Where we disagree, if we can call it that, is the relative strength of the NBA’s bottom 10:teams this season. The strength at the bottom is gonna make winning > 33 games or so a real challenge. There just isn’t the same low-hanging fruit of easy wins like in the past when 5+ franchises started the season openly tanking with 5 more joining them by January thru All-Star break.

So I guess is saying I agree Charlotte can be better than expected but the wins won’t necessarily follow. And yeah, it wouldn’t be great if the FO pivoted their future once again based upon dreams of fringe-y 8th seed results dancing in their heads.
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#58 Adam42R Posted 09 November 2019 - 10:39 AM

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For the record I had Charlotte winning 30 games. A reasonable band for that number is 25 to 35, give or take.

Where we disagree, if we can call it that, is the relative strength of the NBA’s bottom 10:teams this season. The strength at the bottom is gonna make winning > 33 games or so a real challenge. There just isn’t the same low-hanging fruit of easy wins like in the past when 5+ franchises started the season openly tanking with 5 more joining them by January thru All-Star break.

So I guess is saying I agree Charlotte can be better than expected but the wins won’t necessarily follow. And yeah, it wouldn’t be great if the FO pivoted their future once again based upon dreams of fringe-y 8th seed results dancing in their heads.

 

I think we largely agree but are looking at different sides of the coin. We're facing a decent number of teams in the near future that are better than us but have significant or could be significant injuries. That could lead to a weaker than on-paper schedule and in any sight other than in the now, might look like we're well ahead of the curve. This doesn't get us any further ahead than a low 30s win total still but to my point, that "could" end up being a similar 9th or 10th seed result for far fewer wins than last year.

 

To  get to that low thirties, we might make some not too prudent trades if only because we have openly stated that is the only way we expect to grow this team.  E.g. we're not actors in the current NBA, we're reactors and that could mean we take a deal when the deal presents itself, not that we are making the best deal for ourselves.

 

The two items here around over performing our win trajectory and ill-fit trades with respect to strategy might seem disconnected but I am thinking they are highly interconnected.


Here comes McRoberts, the throw to Walker, it's in the aaaaaiiiiirrrr, YESSSSS! Bobcats win it! My my my, Kemba Walker. Steve Martin - Toronto 12/18/2013
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#59 buckets Posted 09 November 2019 - 10:58 AM

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I think we largely agree but are looking at different sides of the coin. We're facing a decent number of teams in the near future that are better than us but have significant or could be significant injuries. That could lead to a weaker than on-paper schedule and in any sight other than in the now, might look like we're well ahead of the curve. This doesn't get us any further ahead than a low 30s win total still but to my point, that "could" end up being a similar 9th or 10th seed result for far fewer wins than last year.
 
To  get to that low thirties, we might make some not too prudent trades if only because we have openly stated that is the only way we expect to grow this team.  E.g. we're not actors in the current NBA, we're reactors and that could mean we take a deal when the deal presents itself, not that we are making the best deal for ourselves.
 
The two items here around over performing our win trajectory and ill-fit trades with respect to strategy might seem disconnected but I am thinking they are highly interconnected.


The “risk” in this sense is trading Monk or Bacon for a respectable backup center. Devonte continuing to punch above pre-season expectations. Rozier giving average PG production. And Borrego sprinkling in 70 minutes of Marvin, MKG, and Nic.

On paper a 35 win team which is sadly a 8th/9th seed in the East. Personally, I doubt it ever comes to that but you are correct. That’s what we’re dealing with this season.....save 1 or 2 teams, the entire WC would make the EC Playoffs. Charlotte landing the 8th seed is likely the difference between picking 6th and 15th.
#Chodidthemath
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#60 buckets Posted 09 November 2019 - 11:21 AM

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*Ughh wrong thread.
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